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Good defenders for high-density areas

The Gym Defenders Tier List is explicitly marked as outdated. So is the main Meta Analysis article, which was written before Gardevoir and Metagross were released.

In high-density areas, motivation decay is less relevant and Golden Razzberry feeding is prevalent. Expect players to bring top attackers (notably Machamp, Dragonite, Tyranitar and legendaries); do not expect psychological tricks to work.

Of course, the Normal-type tanks define the defensive metagame, but which defenders would you place after (or preferably between) them, to use up enemy time and potions/revives, force frequent switches and make Golden Razzberry feeding easier?

Candidates include:
1. Gardevoir with Confusion + Dazzling Gleam: Completely walls Machamp and Dragonite, with neutral matchups against Tyranitar and most legendaries.
2. Dragonite with Dragon Tail + Outrage: Walls Machamp, stops Entei/Moltres and hurts Dragonite badly. Optimal counters are more specialised but make berry feeding unviable.
3. Slowbro with Confusion + Ice Beam: Walls Machamp, punishes Dragonite and stops Entei/Moltres, but weak to Tyranitar and Raikou.
4. Gyarados with Waterfall + Crunch: Stops Machamp, Mewtwo, Tyranitar and Entei/Moltres, but berry feeding is unviable due to a double weakness to Raikou/Zapdos.
5. Steelix with Dragon Tail + Crunch: Walls Dragonite, Mewtwo and even Raikou/Zapdos. Good for berry feeding due to its impressive bulk despite weakness to Machamp and Entei/Moltres.
6. Metagross with Zen Headbutt + Flash Cannon: Stops Machamp, Dragonite and Mewtwo, with the bulk for berry feeding, but weak to Tyranitar and Entei/Moltres.
7. Clefable with Zen Headbutt + Dazzling Gleam: Walls Machamp, Tyranitar and especially Dragonite. Neutral matchups with most legendaries. Optimal counters are specialised.

What about others, like Lapras/Walrein, Ampharos, Umbreon, Milotic and Hariyama?

Asked by hkn6 years 2 months ago

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Answers

Wigglytuff for the same reason as Clefable so annoying with all that hp and fairy type.

Wigglytuff is a lot worse than Clefairy because it's also normal type and doesn't have a psychic fast move so it doesn't do anything to stop Machamp. Wigglytuff is also less bulky than Clefable.

Lapras was God in the old gym meta, but nowadays it's just an annoyance. I think the top non-blisslaxchan nowadays is definitely Gardevoir, and maybe Wigglituff. Those two cover all the main threats IMO. Well, at least for me. There's nothing that makes me sigh out loud more than seeing those two in gym. On the other hand, I love when other players put Dragonite, Gyarados or Ttar in gym since that means it will be much easier to take down. Steelix can be very annoying as well.

If you fight both Lapras and Wigglytuff with Machamp, Lapras takes longer to defeat and deals more damage back (source: pokebattler). That normal type unfortunately makes Wigglytuff not great, Clefable is much better due to being pure fairy.

... you don't like The Wiggle, do you?

Just trying to correct the misinformation. People look at it and think it's great because it's fairy and has lots of hp, but its normal type combined with lack of defense resulting in average bulk means it's not great.

"People look at it and think it's great" there's one of your problems right there. Not all Trainers need to read or compare the numbers and resilience's between Wiggly and Clefable to determine who is better, no, people can come to their own conclusions via experience, too. Personally, I always suffer more damage from Wiggly because Play Rough is harder to dodge than Dazzling Gleam, therefore, I find Wiggly to be better than Clefable. It really is that simple.

And from my experience that I can defeat any Wigglytuff in less than 20 seconds without changing from Machamp and likely only face one Play Rough, two at most, I conclude that Clefairy is better since it forces me to change or take much longer to defeat.

... Play Rough is no joke, man. It hits hard and fast. I'm in a low turnover area so my boys and I lineup Blissey, Wiggly, Snorlax and Azumarill. If the wife's with us, she leaves a Chansey. I know it's a hard hitting lineup because my mates in Valor and Mystic copied and leave it for us to clear out 😂

Clefable is similarly low CP like Wiggly, has better bulk, resists fighting unlike Wiggly and has a better fast move. Should be clear choice between the two.

On paper, I concede that Clefable is the clear choice however, through experience, Clefable with Dazzling Gleam is far easier to defeat nigh-unscathed than Wiggly with Play Rough.

I agree on that, PR is definitely a big advantage on Wigglytuff's side. I just don't feel it makes up for the other shortcomings, namely not being able to slow down Machamps.

People have armies of unpowered legendaries. Whoever you place in gyms is chicken feed for someone waiting for a train/subway.

My experience is that gyms at train stations are the hardest to take down, because the defenders will be fed many berries. Likewise for gyms with a raid egg waiting to hatch.

Yes, but the point is true that the defender doesn’t matter much. All this thought about defending a gym is kind of pointless. Aside from golden raz and Blissey (which is pretty easily beaten now also) there is no gym defense.

Blissey, Guardevoir, snorlax, dragonite, chansey is perfect

And a Pidgey as the 6th just for good measure.

I agree with most of your top candidates for exactly the same reasons.

Lapras is still great, it's quite slow to defeat even with Machamp due to its amazing bulk. Walrein is a budget Lapras for defending, less bulk so less good. Ampharos, Umbreon and Hariyama aren't bad. Milotic is very ok, its movesets are punishing and it has bulk.

Niantic should give Lapras a Psychic-type charge move since it can communicate via telepathy and enchanting melodies.

Why would Metagross stop Mewtwo? 2 Shadow Balls and then done.

Mewtwo with Shadow Ball is terrible against Normal-type tanks so most Mewtwos used to attack gyms have Focus Blast.

Umbreon/Vaporeon sucks against Fighting/Grass, but good bulk.

Lapras/Walrein/Cloyster is good, even better than Umbreon due to coverage moves, but Fighting is also a problem.

Ampharos, don't you have Groudons?

Milotic, very good, but Raikous.

Hariyama, yeah, Mewtwo.

Please don't mention Mewtwo for gyms.
Well, Dragonite would do well for Hariyama.

Clefable can't really wall over Iron Tail Tyranitars, since none of her fast moves is super effective.

How common is Iron Tail Tyranitar as an attacker though? To me it's a specific fairy counter more than anything. Potential effectiveness against fairy types is the only reason I keep two Iron Tail Tyranitars in my pokestorage.