GamePress

Gen 4 Safest Bets Nitpick

Firstly it's a good article and takes many of the already-established talking points into consideration. I gotta ask about Brine as a potential fast move for Palkia. Brine is already in the game as a charge move given only to Omanyte as a legacy move - maybe the article meant Dive as a potential fast move instead?

Asked by TheBiggestLeaf5 years 8 months ago

Report

Answers

Agree, theres also dive, liquidation, whirlpool, theres too many possibilities for what can happen, and that goes for more than just palkia

Theres more than just a few nitpicks to have with that guide, mostly they only focused on best attackers of their type without considering the relevance of each type against legendaries. YEs Raikou Mewtwo and machamp are strong, but when you look at the legendaries of gen IV, they're not good agaisnt the vast majority (yes shadow ball mewtwo's good againt 5, but tyrantiar still handles all better with STAB and resistances). It seems that they did fall into the mentality of "whats been good/relevant since gen 1 will always be good/relevant" (something I plan to actually make a post on here about) Those assumptions really cant be made with the same level of certainty that gen 3 because of just how different Gen IV's legendaries are they do share types with pervious pokemon, but different type combinations that make certain types better against them (for example dialga and palkia are both dragons but arent weak to ice, and Heatran being steel but ground being better against it than fighting)

The meta of gyms will also really chang,e as up till now, everything that had the highest tank stats was generally weak to fighting, hence why machamp was king, but gen IV offers a lot more diversity in tanky pokemon that arent weak to fighting, and other common gym clearing types

Yes these assumptions were made only using current moves, but that is also a problem. That is also neglecting all the possible new moves that can be added, the gen IV pokemon have stats and the potential for moves, something gen 3 didnt really have to the same extent.

I mean, Palkia's case literally stops at Dive/Liquidation/Whirlpool.

Like it or not, Machamp will continue to find relevancy throughout Gen 4's cycle largely due to how many people already have them available as well as its utility beyond the raid scene. You contradict yourself about Mewtwo in the same breath you bring it up, saying it has no use against many legendaries despite SB being super effective against a whopping 5 of them. Even FB can have utility against a few of them. 4 of the Gen 4 legendaries are mono-psychic with unimpressive stats, even with moves to counter their counters it's pretty safe to assume the same teams will be used against all four.

Accounting for new moves for every case would be a whole other guide of speculation, and in select cases where it mattered they even made a few speculative guesses. Sorry your bois Lucario and Gallade won't be dethroning Machamp any time soon.

Maybe they just forgot that brine was in the game already because its so scarce

The point about mewtwo is that yes shadow bal matches 5 of the legendaries, but 4 resist is psychic only fast moves, and against giratina is weak to its ghost moves, meanwhile tyrantiar has STAB super effective damage against all of them with both fast and charge and resists their ghost and psychic moves. From it being a psychic attacker, just as it did in previous generations, it has no match ups against legendaries, only countering posion and fighting which rarely see use outside of Gengar and Machamp raids (which for the most part, if you have a mewtwo, you dont need to do)

Most legendaries (this excluded mythicals) since gen 1 and to 3 have shared far more weaknesses than the gen IV ones with the exception really being 5 weak to dark (as 4 of them are the same type), and 3 to fighting (with one having a better counter in ground) from gen 1-3, 8 are weak to rock, 4 to dark/grass, 5 to water, 6 to ice

The relevance of machamp in gyms is due to the most tanky pokemon (in terms of raw stats on their own) being normal type or weak to fighting, gen IV does change that, there are a few pokemon that do have tanky stats and arent weak to fighting, the big one being togekiss (something most players are already getting ready) it wont make machamp irrelivent, but it will make it less so if normal type tanks start being swapped out for more type diverse tank pokemon, something that to a small extent is already happening. Yes it is already high level for most players, but the same credit wasnt given to other pokemon like exeggutor, flareon and golem when event pokemon like venasaur, Charizard and tyrantar were out, all likely high leveled, but not given that credit in guides involving those pokemon, it seems a bit of picking and choosing to highlight machamps use (one of the reasons I dislike the mentality around it as no one points out what is cant do when they do that for everything else)

The statement was that things have not changed much since gen 1, if you dont believe that, look at the best nonelegedary attackers list, baring the 3 type that didnt exist in gen 1, all the spots are held or tied by gen 1 pokemon other than tyranitar in rock because of an event, largely due to most pokemon in gen 2-3 not having the stats or movepools (in the main games, and consequently in GO) to rival gen 1 pokemon

A guide of the safest best for gen IV without factoring the possible moves added is more or less half of a guide. The possibilities for gen IV are significantly more open than those were for gen 3

Against a psychic-type target, factoring in all STAB, SE and NVE coefficients, for DPS we get the following:
PC/SB Mewtwo > C/SB Mewtwo > B/C Tyranitar
The DPS/TDO ranking factors in everything already, you really do not need to keep talking about Tyranitar having STAB like it's a big revelation or something. Even having STAB on both attacks and Mewtwo's fast move being resisted, Mewtwo still deals more DPS.

Brine was the whole reason (literally the only reason actually...) I made this thread, because it warrants revision of their article.

In most cases where SB is desired on Mewtwo you'll be running Psycho Cut over Confusion due to its faster energy gain. In cases where the charge move deals SE damage and the fast move deals NVE damage this is preferred. Compare DPS/TDO rankings against Mewtwo and you'll see in all cases PC beats out C in terms of DPS and TDO. Mewtwo's fast move being resisted is a non-issue in those cases.

I never said things changed substantially since Gen 1 and I'm not saying they won't when Gen 4 drops. Machamp in particular is highlighted because no fighting types in Gen 4 will replace it. We may see some bulkier anti-Machamp members lining up gyms, we may still see the same repeated Blissey/Snorlax/Slaking in gyms because people already have those powered up or high-leveled. Not discrediting Togekiss, mind you. I welcome its addition and hope it gets some love in the move distribution department.

While ground types will be better counters for Heatran, Machamp will still be a go-to for rounding out Dialga hit-squads lacking in legendaries and it is still the single fastest counter to Regigigas regardless of if it's packing Zen Headbutt. Let me put the question to you; barring legendaries, who would YOU use against Dialga?

How far do you want them to speculate unreleased moves? They already did for cases where it matters the most, Palkia vs Kyogre and Lucario/Gallade vs Machamp.

The thinking with Tyranitar is that it has STAB and both moves getting effectiveness, yes mewtwo when at the same level will do more, but a mewtwo getting to max level costs significantly more, the rarecandy cost is something that does make people question powering legendaries up beyond a certain point. When looked at it from the perspective of ell being equal, mewtwo is best, but when the rarecandy cost is factored in, tyrantiar is much more cost friendly to power up, given its candy availability, and the availability of other Tyrantiar

My point about gen IV is that it is a trend, many people fall into thinking what was back then is the best because it generally is, most pokemon from gen 1 did have better stats than other pokemon of their type, gen IV was when it did go from a more casual friendly game in the main series to when competitive was starting to become a bigger part, and pokemon were designed with more competitive level stats. Yes machamp is the best fighting type, and yes people will use blissey and the tanks as they are already strong, I agree with both, but gen IV has more potential for change than other gens, most people already have stocked up candy for some of those pokemon because of their potential, when other gens came out, it was starting from scratch with each new possible tank, thats why so many people are buddying Togepi. the possible change in the meta is what I am looking forward to, if machamp still comes out ontop, I will concede

Agaisnt Dialga, what i would bring wont be set in stone until gen IV comes out, I'd bring Breloom, its got higher DPS than machamp and doesnt take a raid pass to get candy, but that can easily be taken by Garchomp, Rhyperior or Lucario if given better moves. As for unreleased moves, that in itself can has the potential to shift everything.

Cost is sort of what the article is out to address. "Is [X Pokemon] worth the resources with the upcoming generation factored in?" After evaluation it's a resounding yes, Mewtwo is a safe bet. Gotta use those rare candies somewhere, there's little reason to pass over dropping them on Mewtwo. Even with the ease of getting Tyranitar candy Mewtwo is head and shoulders above Tyranitar in terms of DPS. Consider each against SC/SB Giratina-A:

Mewtwo PC/SB DPS: 17.98
Tyranitar B/C DPS: 15.286

Mewtwo comes out almost 3 points ahead in DPS. Not to say Tyranitar wouldn't be a sound investment either as it has considerable bulk here, but this is about DPS. STAB doesn't mean shit when something else outpaces it without it.

No one's arguing Gen 4 won't have top tier contenders. There's a whole three articles about some of the most prospective entries in Gen 4. People gravitate to what's the best, and the fact is in a lot of cases due to the simplified mechanics of the game that hasn't really changed much over 3 Gens.

If you actually had the experience of the game's history and didn't just pretend to be resident expert all the damn time you'd know the biggest shake-ups were from changes in game mechanics and move distributions, NOT by new Gens being introduced. A short recap of changes throughout Go's history:

- All charge moves sucked, fast moves were king
- STAB used to weigh more heavily than SE damage
- Machamp was a toothless wimp until C/DP were introduced
- Rock types sucked, plain and simple
- Stat conversion/CP formulas penalized speedy specialists in favor of bulky generalists
- CP mattered much more heavily for defense, which is why so many veterans have armies of maxed Vaporeon/Blissey/Snorlax/Dragonite

The latest change to the above happened during Gen 2's cycle when raids were introduced over a year ago. Barring another huge shake-up, which is impossible to speculate and prepare for mind you, Machamp will still come out on top. One new Pokemon to force a switch won't change that.

Also btw against DT/OR Dialga Machamp still has higher DPS than Breloom, 17.557 vs 16.545. All while being easier to get candy for. Depending on availability of Gible Garchomp may not be an option for most, same for Rhypherior if evo items are required and limited in distribution.

Machamp will stay as the best counter to the best defenders and very likely be the top counter to Dialga, which may end up being the most desirable legendary we've ever gotten. There is no case that you can make that it's not an extremely safe choice.

"yes shadow ball mewtwo's good againt 5, but tyrantiar still handles all better with STAB and resistances"
Tyranitar's STAB is already calculated in. Mewtwo has better DPS against ghost and psychic, period. TTar is of course bulkier, but as shown time and again, DPS matters more than an advantage in bulk.

"for example dialga and palkia are both dragons but arent weak to ice, and Heatran being steel but ground being better against it than fighting"
The article explicitly mentioned each one of these and mentioned their best counters.

"gen IV offers a lot more diversity in tanky pokemon that arent weak to fighting"
None of which are even close to as tanky as the big 3. If you fill a gym with the non-fighting weak pokemon, it will go down faster than a gym that's "weak" to Machamp. Blissey and Chansey are that far out in a league of their own when it comes to bulkiness.

"That is also neglecting all the possible new moves that can be added, the gen IV pokemon have stats and the potential for moves, something gen 3 didnt really have to the same extent."
Gen 3 could have easily come with a huge moveset revamp and lots of new moves like gen 2 did.

In terms of raw bulk, nothing will beat the normal talks, but thats soemthign ive said before, all of them are weak to the same thing, if something is put in an off type pokemon, it will have a greater effective bulk. Gardevoir/dragonite have more bulk against a fighting type that blissey/snorlax

That DPS is calculated without dodging, something with more bulk doesnt need to dodge, and as such, doesnt loose out on DPS as much. DPS also drops when fainting, which bulkier pokemon dont do as frequently. DPS isnt this static thing, it is always changing when in the battle, and seeing as mewtwo takes more damage than tyranitar, it will need to doge more or faint out, which does cut into DPS

Yes, gen 2 and 3 did change movesets, but most of the new pokemon (and NEW pokemon is the key) didnt have the stats to support those moves. Thats how pokemon like Rhyon are able to beat ground pokemon with better moves, because of the stat difference.

The point of my comment is the problem with thinking whats in gen 1 or a legendary will always be good, which is a mentality that article does enforce in some part. The options for new gens, and in particular gen IV, are too open, theres too many possible things that can change, so a guide on what will and will not be safe and useful must be taken with a grain of salt as what expectations are and what actually is can differ greatly

They don't, actually. Effective bulk against fighting-type moves:
Blissey 83421 (normal bulk divided by 1,4)
Chansey 62857 (normal bulk divided by 1,4)
Gardevoir 58643 (normal bulk multiplied by 1,4^2)
Dragonite 51214 (normal bulk multiplied by 1,4)

Togekiss and Drifblim get above Chansey's effective bulk against fighting, but again, that's only if the attacker is stupid/lazy enough to attack with resisted attacks. The more people employ fighting-resistant defenders, the more knowledge that you shouldn't attack everything with Machamps will spread and the meta will once again shift back to Blissey and Chansey, which are supreme in slowing down an attacker who uses proper counters.

Thats my point, they'd have to switch off as theres a better counter elsewhere, and that does cost time when trying to take over a gym. YEs, blissey and chansey are longest to knock out when considering proper counters, but most players have the proper counters to them already, things like gardevoir and dragonite they likely dont. Most players have armies of machamp to take blissey, because thats what is used normally, not many have Max level articuno or metagross/scizor to deal with them, and other counters to those pokemon have difficulty depending on the moveset, meanwhile blissey and chansey are a complete joke due to how well known they are. Same applies for pokemon like ampharos, it as decent bulk and because it has only one weakness and thats cursed with trash moves, people without groudon wont have as easy of a time because its counters arent higher leveled.

Where I am we stack gyms with type diversity and as a result we rarely need to use GRB, as most people dont go for them because it cant be countered by one or two pokemon, and yes, we do ad the normal tanks like blissey, but for their typing and what they bring in more than their raw bulk (something like a snorlax can be beaten by a tyrantiar with easy, but a blissey does take a while even with a machamp), it adds to the defensiveness of a gym with more than its raw bulk, its another pokemon they need to bring a counter to or knock each pokemon out one by one

I'd like to remind the room that you specifically were calling for a Blissey nerf about 2 months ago. Not saying people can't form new opinions based on newly obtained knowledge, just that you have a habit of swinging from one end of hyperbole to the next.

His point was that gym defense would likely go full circle in the following manner:
>defenders that resist Machamp are used more regularly
>word gets around, people diversify their gym assault lineups
>defenders see this, throw Blissey/Chansey back into the mix
>diversified assault lineups struggle again, Machamp comes back
>repeat endlessly

For defenders not named Blissey or Chansey you don't even need maxed counters, anything moderately powered up that deals unresisted/SE damage takes out most things quickly, including Gardevoir and Dragonite.

YEah, I did want a blissey nerf, but that was more so about the GRB than anything else (that was also about 10 levels and a SD/SE Tyranitar ago)

Yes, that is the gym cycle, and by definition, it would mean there is no reliable gym counter and all are reliable gym counters, so singling out one pokemon as the best gym counter and that one pokemon is the best defender would be a contradiction of that. I could say that all gym defenders will circle back to gardevoir and the best attacker circle back to Gengar, it is a cycle without end. Picking one particular match up doesnt accurately reflect anything

SD Tyranitar doesn't even factor against Blissey, I'm not sure what you mean by that.

It's been shown a few comments above with concrete math and numbers that even factoring in a fighting-type weakness that Blissey still has a huge head on effective bulk compared to Gardevoir and Dragonite with their fighting-type resistances factored in. The argument is in regards to effective bulk, and the fact that the single bulkiest thing in the game is weak to Machamp is why the discussion keeps circling back to it.

Frankly it's getting tiring having the same argument with the same outcome despite having numbers and stats to back it up. Gardevoir has never come close to ousting Blissey for best defender, at best it's a speed bump easily dismantled by anything that can dish out unresisted damage.

>Gardevoir and Dragonite counters
Everyone has Aggrons to defeat Gardevoir and Dragonite has been a thing for so long that most people know how to kill it efficiently. SD Tyra means even many newer players have a great counter to it.

>Blissey and Chansey complete joke
There is currently nothing in the game that's as annoying to fight unless you do something extremely stupid like use electric against Rhydon.

>Ampharos
Gets taken down by Machamp in 20 seconds. It's not bulky nor does it resist fighting so you don't need a specialized attacker for it. Not worth mentioning as a defender.

Yes, stacking gyms is important, but it doesn't in any way make the normal types less important, they bring the majority of the bulk. It also doesn't make that much of a difference when someone actually wants the gym, at most you slow down the attacker by a minute or two compared to a gym that has all the normal types next to each other.

Defeating Blissey or Chansey with their best counters takes longer than defeating Gardevoir and Dragonite with their worst counters.

PLEASE edit and proofread your posts. I could barely get the information out of them because of your writing style.

Remember that Darkrai will be likely getting Dark Pulse and NOT foul play as well, in which it will still have the highest dark dps in the game.

This is true. Keep in mind with Darkrai being mythical odds are we will only get one, you'll still need to build a team around it. It will also be more frail than Tyranitar. One of the main reasons Tyranitar gets props is because it has reputable DPS while also having impressive bulk.

It will be interesting to see what they do with all the mythicals, we're almost to gen IV and Celebi's only just coming worldwide. YEs they started with mew about a year and a half after initial release of the game, but thats still one year to just get passed Deoxys, assuming they dont release any in standard raids.

For future generations with multiple Mythicals, I could see multiple being released at once. Gen 4 has the most at 5 and all future gens have at least 3.

Thatd be interesting, theres also 2 in gen 3, Jirachi and Deoxys (whose 4 forms might make things complicated)

Latest Content

Rivals Week & Go Battle Weekend
2024-04-25

Necrozma Confirmed for Pokemon Go Fest 2024
2024-04-11

Bug Out 2024
2024-04-08

Mega Heracross Raid Day Guide
2024-04-05

Mega Heracross Raid Day
2024-04-05

An Excellent Opportunity - Good and Great Throws count as Excellent fo…
2024-03-31

Typing Review: An Overview of Normal Types for Raids in Pokemon Go
2024-03-24

Typing Review: An Overview of Ice Types for Raids in Pokemon Go
2024-03-22