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Is Dark Gyarados that bad against Mewtwo?

The guide does not list Gyarados as a filler option. Of course, I know it is terrible against Thunderbolt, but what about other charged moves (it does resist Flamethrower and Focus Blast)?

Asked by hkn5 years 6 months ago

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Things with higher DPS than B/C Gyarados (15.473) against a C/FB Mewtwo:

- Pinsir (+16% DPS)
- PC/SB Alakazam (+12% DPS)
- SA Moltres (+8% DPS)
- Scyther (+8% DPS)
- CB/SB Gardevoir (+5% DPS)
- DB/DC Dragonite (+1% DPS)

You'll notice some of those options are pretty sub-optimal in their own right, either because of having limited use outside this specific scenario or that there are better versions of them available.

Not to tear too hard into B/C Gyarados here: I used one when I had literally nothing better to use. With there being so many better options available it's hard to recommend it unless you're a total newbie.

how do you know all this that is cool x

Check the DPS/TDO rankings in the left sidebar menu.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong on this) the game press guides average over all the movesets, which ends up ruling out some specialty choices like Gyarados against Fire Blast and Ice Beam.

I've used poke battler in the past to get information like that.

Against Flamethrower Mewtwo in foggy weather, double Dark Gyarados comes up 22nd (Time to Win, Single attacks), behind SB Mewtwo, almost any Gengar moveset, any Crunch Ttar or B/SE, double Dark Houndoom, double Dark Absol, SB/SC Banette, double Dark Sharpedo, PC/SB Alakazam, double Dark Shiftry, and even double Dark Alolan Muk. So not the best, but if you have one powered up, it could do decent work.

Against Ice Beam Mewtwo, in foggy weather, it moves up to 20th, behind mostly the same crew, taking out a few and adding in double bug Pinsir and double Dark Arcanine and Crawdaunt, just edging out double Dark Sneasel. Again, not optimal, but serviceable.

If you already have one powered up, sure, use it if you don't have anything better. I wouldn't recommend powering up double Dark Gyarados for this. Now, when Mega Gyarados is out there, that's a different story, and we can answer that question in 2020 or 2021.

I have a level 30 that I tossed off to my kids- it makes a serviceable 6th as they lack dark Tyrannitar but have 3 PC/SB Mewtwo. (Rayquaza and BB Charizard round it out).

If only people used dark gyarados rather than the auto select picks. I've seen too many aggron, cloyster, golem, even arcanine during this month...

I'd gladly have aggron be in the raiders auto select if it didnt mean they always bring freaking lugia

Ah, yes, your Aggron love shines through again. You do know it's DPS is crap, right? Trade a little attack for a little defense and you're bringing Blissey.

I was meaning that at least aggron goes down faster so people get their crap pokemon out of the way. I fully acknowledge Aggron's trash, I have before, either you missed that or someone's got selective memory

What's funny about this is Lugia has (slightly) more DPS than Aggron in every case and has higher TDO against every matchup except against both Ice Beam sets. I also never see Lugia in auto-select unless Focus Blast is involved.

But I digress, how about people quit bringing in either of them?

There was recently a thread on TSR about this. Most people bring in bad counters because they don't know or don't care. Also to many people it's a completely alien idea that what the game recommends isn't the best choice. If the raids never fail in the first place, why would a casual player go through the trouble of finding out what are good counters?

I was reading that. I think a lot of that varies form area to area as well. Someone playing in NYC or Singapore where every raid constantly has multiple 20 person lobbies going can probably get by just coasting along. You get into anywhere that needs Facebook or Discord or the like to organize stuff and suddenly optimization becomes a lot more important.

I still power up T5 raid counters anyway. If they save me even one raid pass, I consider them to be worth it.
But they get me damage balls in smaller lobbies too, so it’s more than just that.

Certainly. In areas where you need people to pull their weight it's worth it to at least try to tell people that they could clear with 1-2 fewer players needed if they set up better teams for the boss.

With some players it's also genuinely a problem of not even having proper counters or enough playtime to get them, children especially. Had a Mewtwo raid recently where 10 children and me were at the beginning and they just did not have enough attackers to do the 3/4ths of the boss needed in addition to my damage. Some had one or two Tyranitar, many had none. Ended up being an 18-person raid and it still took more than half the timer to beat.

Do I come off as a dick if I say I'm glad I don't raid with kids on the regular, if at all?

completely agree. Joined my discord here, and been prepping with friends for two and three mans of raids because we know people dont optimize teams. One thing we've seen about the ones that dont optimize teams are they dont know how much benefit you get from more damage balls, most all of them are mystic and have gym control + team contribution, so they dont really see a variation in the rewards, all they know is more throws at catching.

Lugia is really not that bad against Mewtwo with DT/SA - people are still used to Lugia BEFORE Sky Attack got a fat buff.

Definitely not at the level of a specialist option but it serves as a good anchor, and I would definitely rather see it out there than Aggrons - not because Aggrons are much worse but because autoselected Aggrons tend to not be TMed to Iron Tail/Heavy Slam.

Also gonna throw out there that for people with nothing but TTars powered up for past Mewtwos, Lugia is a great option for Focus Blast, whereas Aggron is not.

I agree, id rather people never use the low DPS, big tdo options as well, but we all know that will not happen because people dont know how bad they are. But at the very least aggron goes down faster so they can get past them quicker.

I was meaning it in that aggron goes down faster, so people who dont know how to play can at least get to their (possibly) better pokemon faster. lugia takes a long freaking time to go down

Once again with the backtracking.

Well, yes, there is that.

I find that if it's partly cloudy, it suggests SD/SE Ttar against everything except Focus Blast. Using autosuggest to figure out the moveset is good, and then pick optimized counters. How difficult is it for auto select to choose one of my 4 SB Mewtwos as a good counter for any current Mewtwo?

Because auto-select favors survive-ability and charge moves with high base damage. This is also why against Psychic and Flamethrower Variants it picks my SD/SE Tyranitar over my B/C ones despite the B/C ones having way higher damage output.

It's unclear whether it favors high base damage or raw DPS, at least going by the data from Tyranitar. In this case SD/SE wins over B/C in both ways and generally speaking one-bar charge moves almost always have better raw DPS than multi-bar charges. One exception is FP vs. SOB, so you could prove which one it is if you had two Venusaurs with the exact same level and IVs with each move.

Because niantic thinks this should be a game about TDO and survivability more than it is about DPS. ie, they're oblivious to how the community is playing, or they just like screwing with us.

Most likely they haven't thought about it that deeply and nobody there thinks it a high priority to make a better autoselect algorithm after they tweaked it early on to not favor survivability as heavily as it used to.
I know I could create a better algorithm in an hour tops and test edge cases in another hour or two but if there isn't a person at Niantic who thinks that kind of work is worth doing over something else, it doesn't get done.

In my opinion it's perfectly willingly that Niantic set up autoselect to favor survivability. It makes sense for low level trainers, the kind who would need to join forces to win a T3 raid. Just look at the number of people suggested before entering the lobby, it's ridiculously high. But when you consider players of levels 5-20, suddenly it makes more sense. Players of levels 30+ don't need help or suggestions, they have stronger pokémon, they can use better counters to optimise damage if they wish. Low level players need to survive the boss' moves, the number of players will make up for the lack of individual damage.

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