P/HB Blissey vs. ZH/BS Snorlax as defender
Gamepress: "Blissey with any moveset is much better than the best Snorlax."
Does anyone seriously believe this? Has the person who wrote this actually ever battled a P/HB Blissey and a ZH/BS Snorlax? I don't own either pokemon, so I don't have any bias. Blissey with HB is essentially just Blissey with no charge move, because hyper beam is so ridiculously easy to dodge, and it comes very infrequently and predictably. There are no surprises with HB Blissey, and well-chosen attackers will beat the Blissey every time. Body Slam on Snorlax hits pretty hard, it hits often, and it is very unpredictable. I get my butt kicked by BS Snorlaxes quite frequently no matter which attackers I use, and that has a ripple effect on my entire attacking lineup if I am trying to defeat a high-level gym.
In reading Gamepress's methodology, the time taken to defeat a defender is apparently given major consideration. Is that really so important if it is a slow but basically guaranteed win? Isn't a mon that takes less time to beat, but has the potential to prematurely wipe out my best attacker, a better defender? How does the 30-40 extra seconds it takes to defeat Blissey compare with the additional time and potions/revives needed when I have one less attacker because it was wiped out by a timely body slam (or two)?
Again, I don't own either of these mons, but I've fought plenty of both, and I'd much rather attack into the P/HB Blissey. Sure, I know it's going to take a little longer, but the outcome will never be in doubt. Not so with a BS Snorlax. In fact, I'd rather battle the Blissey than a good post-nerf Lapras or Slowbro.
One more point, Gamepress says that "Psychic (on Blissey) is sub-par in almost every way except that it's the hardest to dodge." Well, isn't difficulty to dodge pretty basic to a defender's strength? Why does dps matter if the hyper beam never hits, but the psychic does once in a while? I've gotten through Blisseys without missing a dodge on psychic, but not always. I NEVER miss dodging a hyper beam. Again, as an attacker, I'd much rather face the Blissey with HB than with psychic.
Answers
Snorlax ZH/BS is a beast for sure. I'm lucky enough to have two of them. I also have two P/HB Blisseys sitting at 2900-2915CP. I know those P/HB Blisseys aren't easy to kill at that CP.
Out of curiosity have you beaten a 2900+CP blissey with P/HB or have they been lower levels? They aren't "easy" I will tell you that. HB still hits hard even if you dodge. And if you miss a dodge... good luck.
I don't think I've faced a P/HB Blissey with a CP quite that high, but most of the Blisseys I see are 2500+, and it's the relative strength of the attacker that matters. One of the first Blisseys I battled (prestiging) was CP 2500 with pound/psychic, and My CP 1500 Machoke with KC/Sub almost beat the Blissey singlehandedly. I had to swap out the Machoke with about 20 seconds left because he was about to faint, while the Blissey had about 10% HP remaining. I brought in a CP 1500 Wigglytuff long enough to launch a single HB, and that finished off the Blissey with about 10 seconds to spare. These are prestige mons I'm talking about. My CP 2400 KC/CC Machamp has never lost to a P/HB Blissey, and I'm pretty sure a couple hundred extra CP on the Blissey wouldn't change that. Maybe it would take a few seconds longer.
As for what happens if you miss a dodge on the HB, of course you are correct, except for the fact that it NEVER HAPPENS. That's my whole point. Do I miss dodges on BS? Yes, more than I'd like to admit. They happen fast and unpredictably. Do I miss dodges on HB from a Blissey? Never, because they are so predictable and they are so blatantly telegraphed.
Snorlax's stats (a/d/s): 190/190/320
Blissey's stats (a/d/s): 129/229/510
The difference in snorlax vs blissey (with your aforementioned movesets) is a trade-off between resource consumption (potions, revives) vs. time.
ZH/BS or BS in general depleted resources substantially faster than blissey. However, consider this.
Judging from the stats, between the difference in ratios of defensive stats, it takes 1.6x the amount of time to take down blissey compared to snorlax, before considering dodging. Even with dodging, that 1.6x may or may not shrink significantly.
Now consider the following: 2 gyms, one with the majority of which are snorlaxes and the other which is predominately composed of blisseys. And in this scenario, imagine both are lv 8-10 gyms.
The time it would take to knock down a gym of that many snorlax would be equivalent of knocking down that gym and extra 50% more time. Snorlax isn't easy to take down either (in terms of time). A potential attacker may be, if they have enough resources, more likely to attack the gym composed of snorlaxes, as they require less time.
With that many blisseys, as well, they may prove to be more of a deterrent to even engage the gym in the first place.
Ultimately, I believe gamepress favors the amount of time it takes to knock down a gym > resources. The additonal advantage of being a deterrent for blissey also enhances their argument.
Your time argument doesn't take into account the ~0% chance of Blissey's HB hitting vs. X% chance of the Snorlax's BS hitting, which might mean that you are unable to get through the same number of defenders with your six attackers. Thus, time is spent reviving healing attackers, and having to manually choose a team of six more frequently.
Also, these mons aren't generally battled in isolation. If you are attacking a gym, you pick a lineup with one or two specialists for the Snorlax/Blissey, and other specialists for the other defenders. If the Snorlax specialist is wiped out prematurely, you have to finish him off with a suboptimal attacker that was meant for another pokemon, and then that attacker might not have enough health left to do the job he was intended for. There are no surprises with a HB Blissey.
Ok so you are going to hate me for this but there is a serious intimidation factor with Blissey. The only one I have is 2200 CP, 98 IV, and P/HB. I put it in a gym probably 4 days after the update (I only had enough candies to pump it up to 2200) and I have not seen her since. I have a ZH/HB Snorlax which I have had for a long time, 86 IV great defender. I have put him in that same highly contested gym 3-4 times a week since I got him at level 25 (hes around 2800 CP now) and he always got kicked out within a day or 2. I dunno what it is but Blissey makes people run and hide. Also, a lot of people continuously dodge throughout the hyperbeam animation which takes up a ton of time leading to a time out.
Maybe you are in the very very small minority, but with Snorlax, the chance of timeout is very very small.
Any super high level Blissey (3000+CP) will have a chance to time out anyone without specific counters. Some mons will NEVER beat a Blissey in the 100 seconds, not possible. Plenty of mons can take out the Snorlax.
I definitely value my time more than potions/revives since Snorlax, as hard as he is will make me NEVER time out. Blissey, if you lag, could time out even with 8 seconds on the clock and if you miss a dodge/lag (endless loop) and lose your only MaChamp, have to attack her with sub-optimal DPS mons now.
Blissey is definitely in a league of her own and you may say Snorlax will do more damage, but Blissey hits hard enough and if you can't waste time dodging, you will be reviving or healing your pokemon for sure afterwards anyways.
She DEFINITELY tears apart more attackers than Snorlax due to her sheer bulk and HB maybe a weak move on Blissey, but lag/miss a dodge or not miss one and it still will take a chunk of your health since the chance of timeout is real with her (never with Snorlax for me).
She'll also get off 3 or so HP due to her high HPs as well so her top rating over Snorlax is accurate and well deserved.
Seriously, all gym defenders are a joke and gyms are too easy already...
I also think TIME is the main deterrent in gym defense. Not movesets, not any mon and Blissey is the best time waster of them all.
I've fought both of them in battle and prestige and I will tell you without a doubt Blissey with HB is harder to beat than a BS Lax. BS is very dodgeable and quite frankly easier to beat than any moveset Blissey. Against a BS the ideal mon to beat it to a pulp is with a DB/DC Dnite because you can dodge every quick move and the BS seamlessly. Does it take some dodging skill - yes. Against a Blissey with HB sure it's easy as hell to dodge BUT it's the anxiety of it firing an HB that will make you fight it more cautiously so you don't get trapped in your long cool down of your charge move and get hit with HB. If you get hit say bye bye. This caution reduces you to play inefficiently resulting in more time wasted. And that gives Blissey the time to send out 2-3 HBs. Maybe even 4. Even if you dodge HB you'll get 25% damage. And TIME is Blissey's ultimate weapon.
Never said I never miss a dodge on BS. Do I miss it once in a while. Sure if I'm not paying attention, lag, or just being greedy to put in that extra hit. If you have long duration quick moves and/or charge moves you will get hit with BS. That's why a move set like DB/DC is ideal to beat up on a BS Lax through dodging.
So agree with you. ZH/BS Snorlax is a beast, I must say. But it's just the second best beast. If we are not in a hurry, not too greedy, we can land/tap the screen slowly and watch out for his BS attacks and still finish him in time. I prefer using 3 bar charge move pokemons like Aqua Tail Vaporeon to counter BS Snorlax and I can dodge almost every of his charge moves.
When we counter a Blissey (assuming at the same level as ZH/BS Snorlax), w/ whatever moves she has, you still have to dodge her charge moves to survive and try to beat her in time. To beat her in time, most players have to choose pokemons w/ highest attack stat, which means low in defend and stamia, so the consequence of getting hit by Blissey's charge moves is losing two attackers to beat one Blissey or time-out. The higher the Blissey's CP/level the bigger this threat is.
As a level 35 trainer I agree with the OP, but I wouldn't if I was level 20. For me I'd much rather fight a P/HB Blissey for all the reasons he mentioned. It's a sure win that will waste fewer potions.
I'd bet a level 20 trainer without awesome attackers would feel different. With Snorlax you will win even if it takes a few Mon. With Blissey you risk timing out.
The question is how can Gamepress rank Snorlax ZH/HB the same (or higher since its listed at the top) as ZH/BS?
Thanks, I was getting lonely in my opinion. I am level 35 too, BTW, and I have enough big guns to not have to worry about timing out against a predictable (HB) Blissey. I guess I usually assume that the commenters here are level mid-30's or higher, but that may not be the case as often as I think.
To your ranking question, it is similar to my question of how HB Blissey can rank above psychic Blissey. They don't take into account the difference in practical hit rate, or the need to do more spam dodging.
HB and BS forces a trainer to attack differently.
HB can be dodged by even the worst dodger. The goal of a defending HB isn't to hit you (if hit say good night), but to prevent an attacker from freely spamming charged moves. The attacker's fully loaded bar or bars are prevented from being unleashed as soon as it's loaded which results in lower overall DPS throughout the battle. If a Mon forces the attacker to play inefficiently in order to avoid getting hit with HB during the attackers charge move duration then that defending mon did its job regardless if it loses wins or times out. This is classic Game Theory. The result of a W or a Loss is not the objective. What counts is forcing an opponent to not play its best or efficiently. If this is achieved over the long run then the odds of getting a great outcome becomes greater.
BS is effective against players that either refuses to dodge, lacks dodging skills, or chooses the wrong mons/movesets. Battling BS efficiently takes skill, focus, and choosing not only the correct attack mon but more so on the moveset. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. DC, AT and other short duration charge moves are ideal against BS through dodging.
The possible reason why HB may slightly be better than BS according to GP is perhaps they give us the benefit of the doubt that we are highly skilled trainers that can deal with BS. The strategy against HB would be the same regardless of skill level in dodging. So in a nutshell, if you lack dodging skills then BS will seem like a complete nightmare. If you have dodging skills then BS will not be intimidating.
Thought I'd try a couple of simulations to see what happens.
Using the following:
Attacker: Lv. 30 15/15/15 Dragonite, DT/O
Defender 1: Lv. 30 15/15/15 Blissey, P/HB
Defender 2: Lv. 30 15/15/15 Snorlax, ZH/BS
First run. Assume dodging Charge Moves. 100% chance of dodging occurring (i.e. you don't miss):
Blissey - Dragonite wins with 47.5 seconds and 47 HP left
Snorlax - Attacker with 71.4 seconds and 84 HP left
So it looks as if the Blissey lasted longer and did more damage to the Dragonite.
Now for the more interesting test. What about how hard it is to dodge Body Slam? Let's start with a 100% change of dodging HB and only an 80% of dodging the Body Slam. Note: I ran the Snorlax simulation a few times to get a sense for the possibilities since the dodging will vary.
Blissey - Dragonite wins with 47.5 seconds and 47 HP left (naturally, unchanged)
Snorlax
- Attacker with 71.4 seconds and 40 HP left (missed 2 of 6 BS dodges)
- Attacker with 71.4 seconds and 18 HP left (missed 3 of 6 BS dodges)
- Defender with 76.6 seconds and 146 HP left (missed 4 of 4 BS dodges)
- Attacker with 71.4 seconds and 62 HP left (missed 1 of 6 BS dodges)
Of those four different results, the most likely one is between the first (2 missed dodges) and the last one (1 missed dodge) since 80% of 6 attempts is 1.2 misses. In both those cases the attacker still won.
However, let's compare those two runs to the Blissey. On the run where the Dragonite missed 2 of the dodges, Blissey both took longer to beat and did more damage to the Dragonite than Snorlax, so it would be easy to classify it as "tougher".
In the run where the Dragonite missed only 1 of the dodges, the Blissey still took longer to beat, but did slightly less damage to the Dragonite than the Snorlax (47 HP remaining versus 62 HP). In that case, I'd suggest it depends on your definition of tougher. If it's based on amount of damage done to the attacker, then the Snorlax was better. If it's based on time then the Blissey was still better.
The way that translates to real life is pretty simple. If you can dodge Body Slam successfully 84% of the time (i.e. successfully dodge 5 out of 6 times), then the Blissey with Pound/Hyper Beam will be harder to beat, even if it never hits you with the charge move.
On the other hand, if you can only dodge Body Slam 67% of the time (i.e. successfully dodge 4 out of 6 times), then the Snorlax will do more damage to you, but you'll still beat him faster.
Of course, if you can't dodge Body Slam at least 4 out of 6 times, you're in trouble. :)
Nice work. I'll have to do some more real-world empirical testing, but these results sound plausible. I would say I usually fall in between missing 1 and 2 BS on average, but maybe sometimes 3. Maybe sometimes 0, but I can't remember that happening recently. Part of what makes Snorlax tough (maybe tougher, but I guess, as you say, that is subjective) is the unpredictability. One or two extra missed dodges can have a ripple effect on my ability to sweep the rest of the gym. Also, because of the unpredictability, I usually have to do more spam dodging than I would like, which will skew the results slightly more towards the Snorlax. And the Snorlax takes a lot more concentration. With Blissey, it's simply "spam, spam, spam, spam, (oh, here comes the HB, dodge), spam, spam...ad infinutm. Once I dodge the HB, I know I'm free and clear for long enough to launch X number of charge attacks. With the Snorlax, the BS might come once, it might come twice in a row, or it might even come three times in a row, and I guess wrong as often as I guess right.
I certainly agree in terms of stress. Whenever I'm facing something with HB, not only do I not stress about dodging it, but I make it a point to hit it a couple of times after the text shows up since I know I still have time. It's definitely less to think about than when worrying about when a BS is going to hit. :)
So, right after I posted my last comment, I went out to farm pokestops, and I happened to encounter a level 2 enemy gym defended by a single CP ~2500 ZH/BS Snorlax. I led with my best generalist attacker, a CP 3071 DB/DP Dragonite, and darned if I didn't eat four BS's in a row! Jeez! I was being a little impatient, and my dodging skill level is probably mediocre for a level 35 player, but the BS's kept coming the instant I launched a DP. I still almost won, but he got the last BS off just as I launched what would have been the finishing DP. This raises another point, that the clunkier charge attack moves suffer a lot more at the hands of the BS Snorlax than against a HP Blissey.
It took two or three quick moves with my next attacker (which I hadn't even bothered to choose, so I don't remember what it was) to finish off the Snorlax, but it cost me one extra weak potion.
