One More Dragonite Moveset Post. It's due for another one. Sorry.
I think one of the reasons there is a debate going on about DT/O vs DB/DC is the fact that there is a wide range of battling skills among trainers. Here me out and please do not get offended as it is not my intention.
DT/O > DB/DC if one lacks dodging skills
DB/DC > DT/O if one has great dodging skills.
DB/DC is like a Formula One racing car. It takes professional skills to drive one and bring out the full potential of the beast.
DT/O is like a muscle car such as a Mustang GT. Almost everyone will know how to drive it fast.
That's all :D
Answers
This is a nice way to put it. :)
However what if we could have the best of both worlds? Where your quick move is super fast, giving you the ability to dodge, and deals decent damage; and your charge move has high damage and a low cooldown?
Yup I am thinking about Tyranitar, Bite/Stone Edge.
Bite: same as DB: CD 0.50s/8.00EPS and 15DPS with STAB
You can check out Stone Edge too: its CD is 2.3s, which is pretty great for a high damage charge move.
Wait till you get one, your eyes will be opened, lol.
Wishing you luck!
I also have a 97% Bite/FB Tyranitar, it's not bad (and not as terrible as people make it out to be), but Stone Edge is seriously the business.
To me, the DT/O vs DB/DC debate will soon be over once people get their Bite/SE T-Rexes, haha.
Sure, DPS is DPS. But gym battles aren't just some dps race, trying to min/max your damage output. You've got to consider your own HP among other things. If we are debating between two movesets with the difference between them of only a couple percent damage output, I'll side with the moveset that's going to allow me to retain more HP, thus winning more battles over the course of a full gym clear -- and that's DT/Hurricane.
This is why Bite Tyranitar is a beast. He's agile, strong, and bulkier than Dragonite. Plus he has key resistances which help greatly in the Snorlax / Blissey matchups. He is arguably the best attacker in the current gym meta because he exploits the most popular defenders (dragonite, gyarados, snorlax, blissey) and he does so retaining more HP than Dragonite.
As long as you are dodging in a good rhythm, Hydro Pump won't hurt too much -- and dodging is soooo easy with Bite (and Stone Edge for that matter). Gyarados is a chump, and Tyranitar kills it just as well as Dragonite or other generalists.
And Twister?!?!?!? Are you seriously saying that Gyarados with Twister is a threat for T-rex? That's lunacy, dude.
Well I'm not too good with dodging tbh so I get hit by Hydro and Twister all the time. Hydro Pump is pretty powerful and Twister just chips away at HP so I don't use T-Rex for Gyra, I just go with my Jolteon (and I'm building up candies to evolve and power up an Ampharos to specifically take care of this situation).
This reminds me of the days when I use to debate Super Smash Bro characters w/ my school mates. Everyone had a different character that fit their style. This is the same thing w/ Dragonite. It's not necessarily the best attacker for everyone. For 1 it has a relatively low HP. It wasn't a heavy hitter until DT came out on it. DB was more of a nifty spam attack. I myself have a DB/DC Dragonite collecting dust and much prefer using L/HB Snorlax. Dragonite is great but it's not the only available Pokemon.
Side Note. FS/OH Flareon is an incredibly fun Pokemon to use for those who haven't invested in one yet.
DC as a three bar charge move with its short duration is ideal for dodging. So the risk of getting hit during animation is almost zero. There is more risk of getting hit using long duration charge moves like Outrage. This forces attackers to time it correctly usually after dodging defenders charge move. This reduces the maximum amount of spammed charge moves to be released by the attacker.
DB/DC can achieve closer to maximum DPS during battle through dodging. Only the very short pause to dodge prevents it from maximum theoretical DPS. This creates tremendous efficiency by taking less damage while achieving very high DPS during battle.
And I'll bring up the same answer that has been brought up in all the previous posts: it's all dependent on the player and their playstyle, not their "lack of dodging skills". In fact, a DB/DC Dragonite is actually easier to play. Its attacks are much quicker and thus dodging is much easier.
Let's start with the player who dodges nothing. DT/O wins. It's more DPS overall. No argument there. But this is a pretty suboptimal way to play because not dodging special attacks is really inefficient.
Next is the player who dodges everything including quick attacks. DB/DC wins here, because again, faster attacks means easier dodging. DB/DC can weave in and out of fast attacks in a way that that DT/O can't. Whether a player can do this well enough to maintain enough uptime through increased survivability is up to the player.
Finally, the player who only dodges special attacks, which seems to be a majority of players. Both movesets are viable, both can be played to 100% efficiency while dodging all special attacks. However, it is easier to do so with DB/DC because, again, fast attacks means much more responsive dodging and less paying attention to ability timing. Doing so with DT/O is harder, but still very doable, it just requires more attention to the attacks and estimating opponent energy as to not get caught in one during a critical dodge moment. To me, THAT seems like a more difficult task, but the reward is a faster kill time. DT/O will outperform DB/DC if both Dragonites dodge their specials and use their energy efficiently (i.e. never letting it get to 100).
So it's really unfair to say "DT/O > DB/DC if one lacks dodging skills", because thats just assuming that the only possible way to play DT/O is by eating specials. If anything, it's actually HARDER to dodge on a DT/O and takes more "skill" to pilot one while doing so.
But I think "skill" is the wrong word choice anyway. Dodging is easy and all Dragonites can do it exactly the same. In the case of the majority (people who dodge specials only), a faster moveset like DB/DC makes dodging easier to where more people are capable of 100% efficiency. Your argument seems to imply that it's impossible to play DT/O without wasting energy or without getting hit by a special. DT/O is harder to keep 100% with efficiency with, but certainly not impossible, and will reward a higher DPS if done so correctly.
Well argued and agree with most of your points but there are a lot of people out there that still do not know how to dodge well. Therefore, for those that don't have the dodging "skills" DB/DC will not be used efficiently and may look sub-par compared to DT/O. Because DT/O has higher DPS and DPE it is more forgiving if you miss a dodge and eat a special or two because the raw power of DT/O will eventually KO the defender even playing at less optimal performance. It may have lost a lot of HP but still a win. DB/DC will ONLY outperform at close to 100 % efficiency and that does take dodging "skills". There are YouTube videos showing this type of comparison with dodge nothing, dodge specials only and dodge all. Every scenario is very close in performance except the dodge all battle which clearly shows the tremendous efficiency of DB/DC.
Right, this is what I laid out above. DB/DC is superior in a dodge all scenario, and DT/O is superior in a dodge nothing scenario. In a dodge specials scenario, DT/O is still superior IF you can dodge the specials and stay under 100 energy, which is harder to do with a DT/O moveset than DB/DC, but very possible.
I think we are actually agreeing, but I think you meant one thing in your OP and I read it as another. I think in your OP when you said "great dodging skills", you meant successfully employing a dodge everything offense. If that's what you meant, you're right, a dodge everything strategy requires higher skill and DB/DC is much more efficient in that scenario. What I understood it as when I read it was "it takes more skill to dodge with DB/DC than it does with DT/O", which isn't true because it's much easier to make an error with DT/O.
Right?
To clarify, yes, I meant dodge all with DB/DC. It's the only real way to use that moveset optimally which takes "dodge everything skills". Dodging a single move isn't hard, but achieving close to maximum DPS by dodging everything requires the skills to fit as many attacks in between dodges as possible without getting hit.
Experience comes into play also. For example, you will know that you can put in maximum of 3 DBs before the first Confusion is shot from the beginning of a battle, then dodge, 1 DB, dodge, 3 DBs, dodge, 1 DC, 2 DBs, dodge etc etc. All from memory of gym battles of different mons and movesets. The pokebattler app (forgot the actual name of it) is not 100% accurate compared to real world gym battles. If you go EXACTLY by their pattern on maximum DPS, you will get hit. Trust me I tested it. The reason why it's not completely accurate is because if you perform a successful dodge a peach hair late, you may not be able to fit in the maximum amount of quick hits before the next dodge depending on the defenders movesets. Example is a densive Vaporeon's water gun. Sometimes you can fit in 4 DBs and sometimes 3 DBs. I've learned my lesson a while back that you can't get too greedy so I settle for 3 DBs most of the time to be safe.
Another example: vs ZH. ZH is much more predictable because it's always consistent with its attack cycle. You can put in 4 or 5 DBs in between dodges. You put in 4 if you dodged a at the end of the dodge window, and can easily fit in 5 DBs if you dodged early in the window. It's all from experience and you get in the Zone.
Last example: against any Rhydon quick move. This is by far the easiest to dodge because there is a "tell" by Rhydon BEFORE the dodge flash appears. It's like Rhydon is saying "hey keep spamming your DB until I give you the tell that a dodge flash is coming"
Btw, has anyone noticed that you can't do a DC and right away a DB and both hit the defender at the same time anymore since the new update? I view this as a slight nerf to DB/DC. Before Gen 2, this unusual ability added even more destructive powe of DB/DC. Can't do that anymore now. Made me a little sad. Haha
