3140CP Blissey
(Not a rant, not a question, just a narrative)
Today, while driving by a rival gym, I saw a level 8 tower. It's almost unseen of in this city of high turnovers, and what did I do? I chose to take it down.
This was my team:
3070 Gyarados
3113 Dragonite
2892 Dragonite
2785 Gyarados
2779 Gyarados
2473 Exeggutor
3, The next defender was a Vaporeon. The water guns proved too much for gyarados and it fainted. Then who did I choose next? Of course I chose the egg man. It took 3 aqua tails, but with the rigid typing and strong attacks, it dispatched vaporeon with 0 dodging.
Exeggutor, now tarnished and weak, had to come up against an enemy Gyarados. It took the enemy bites super effectively, but powerful confusions still chewed through the enemy HP significantly, though I had to swap in the dragonite to finish the gyarados. Now came a Snorlax. My dragonite proved its worth by splattering steel wings and dragon claws, however suboptimal it may be. Body slams have caused my dragonite to hang on a thread, but it made it through. Dragonite then came to face a dragonite. Missed a dragon pulse dodge, and now my Steel wing dragonite became a pile of dragon ash. My DB Dragonite then finished the job. A new dragonite? No problem. Until I miss another dragon pulse dodge that roasted my dragonite. I had to expend half a gyarados to take care of the rest.8...surely, the only pokemon that can be placed higher than a dragonite is another dragonite right?
WRONG. It was a 3140 Blissey. ZH/Hyper beam. Not the worst nightmare, but still a pretty bad one. And what do I have left? My dragonites are now dragon ash. My egg man is burnt. All I have left, is a gyarados and a half.
bite/hydro pump, bite hydro pump, rinse and repeat
The fight finished......
with two seconds to spare.
Gym run complete.
End of story.
Answers
I'm sorry, but I don't buy this story. I struggled with a 3000 cp Blissey when gen 2 first came out and Gyarados WAS NOT a viable option with bite and hydro pump/outrage because he timed out.
First, I think we can agree that you aren't an expert dodger, as you even missed charge moves. On top of that, if you are anything like me, dodging a HB takes like 3 swipes, which loses time. That being said, I ran a couple of simulations...
https://pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/GYARADOS/quickMoves/BITE_FAST/cinMoves/HYDRO_PUMP/cp/2785/defenders/BLISSEY/quickMoves/ZEN_HEADBUTT_FAST/cinMoves/HYPER_BEAM/cp/3140/strategies/DODGE_SPECIALS2/DEFENSE
In this simulation, dodge specials, your Gyarados gets smoked by Blissey in 71 seconds, only managing to take away half of her hps.
https://pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/GYARADOS/quickMoves/BITE_FAST/cinMoves/HYDRO_PUMP/cp/2785/defenders/BLISSEY/quickMoves/ZEN_HEADBUTT_FAST/cinMoves/HYPER_BEAM/cp/3140/strategies/DODGE_ALL2/DEFENSE
In a dodge all scenario, Gyarados loses to Blissey in 100 seconds (times out.) In would actually take 120 seconds in unlimited time to beat Blissey in a dodge all scenario. Even with your best Gyarados and bite/hydro pump and dodge all, you would still time out against Blissey...
https://pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/GYARADOS/quickMoves/BITE_FAST/cinMoves/HYDRO_PUMP/cp/3070/defenders/BLISSEY/quickMoves/ZEN_HEADBUTT_FAST/cinMoves/HYPER_BEAM/cp/3140/strategies/DODGE_ALL2/DEFENSE
Sorry, this isn't a true story. I don't know if this was an attempt to brag, or just some more Gyarados fluff, but a BITE Gyarados does not have the fire power to beat a Blissey within the time limit, ESPECIALLY at that level. I could have told you that because it was obvious after ONE battle with my 2733 bite Gyarados against a 3043 Blissey...
Why do you need to swipe 3 times to dodge hyperbeam? You don't need to be constantly dodging during its ridiculously long windup.
OP said they had 1.5 Gyarados, so your first simulation showing that 1 Gyarados was defeated in 71 seconds is rather pointless.
Pokebattler simulations assume you're starting off from scratch. If his Gyarados started with a close to full energy bar from the previous defender, he would be far less likely to timeout.
Lastly, my B/HP Gyarados' regularly take out Blissey, you just need to power them up past 30.
The gyarados in this story can be assumed to be hatched magikarp at level 30. A gyarados in the range of 2760 to 2810 cp (roughly) is that. For example, my three at level 30 are 2801, 2785, 2770.
Also, if a full health gyarados takes down a Blissey by about half health (call it 60%) then a half gyarados with a full energy bar to start doing 40% damage in 26 seconds is believable, but would be very tight.
“I think we can agree that you aren't an expert dodger” Get off your high horse this person is excited to share a story with us. On the same note “dodging a HB takes like 3 swipes, which loses time” - this is literally most inexpert dodge tactic in the game. It doesn’t take 3 swipes, only scrubs do this. Step your game up and learn some respect.
A DT/HP gyarados is definitely possible to down a 3.1K+ blissey safely without time-out. Bite/HP will be slower, if lvl 30 vs that higher level Blissey, but should still be within the time-out period. Moreover, OP mentioned that he still had abt 1.5 gyarados remaining for that last blissey, and the blissey is fortunately a ZH/HB, so less time is wasted on dodging HB, as compared to if it's DG.
Might wanna check out this video on the list of lvl 30 attackers into a high level 3.1k ZH/DG Blissey :) (https://youtu.be/idiHYXnBKQk)
How much of total health of the last 1-1/2 Gyaradoses was used up in the battle against the Blissey? Would one 27xx Gyarados have been enough, if it had been fully healthy when you started? Also, am I correct in assuming you were only dodging the hyper beam, with no misses?
In any case, I think you've made a pretty good counter-argument against the claim that Gyarados is "not a very good generalist attacker." I wonder how many other tier 2 & 2.5 mons could have done as well against the same variety of defenders.
On another note, and no offense intended, you've made me feel a little better about what I consider to be my mediocre dodging skills. :)
Actually, the opposite was proven. Tier 2 and 2.5 mons can do better against blissey. Fire Spin Overheat is actually a great poor man's moveset (so to speak, no machamp). I use flareon for blissey at times. Snorlax with lick/HB would preform better. Obviously a double fighting heracross is better. Jolteon is probably too fragile, but since gyarados get overused as gym defenders, it's a separate issue (similar to lapras). Obviously, an alakazam can't finish Blissey, but it damages her crazy fast, which is helpful with the time out (an admitted issue with gyarados). Gengar does rapid damage but typing kills him in this specific matchup, so we can forgive that. I would assume (haven't run numbers) that the exeggutor would be a better performer, especially with a ZH Blisseyou. Extrasensory fills that solar beam so fast and that attack hits like a truck.
I have insufficient experience with espeon to comment, but overall, most of the tier 2 and 2.5 mons would have done better than these gyarados.
I'm not just talking about the Blissey. I'm talking about three Gyaradoses taking out:
- Golduck (with one missed psychic dodge),
- Tentacruel (with one missed HP dodge)
- What we can assume is a small amount of HP from a Vaporeon
- Roughly half a CP ~3000 Dragonite
- A CP 3140 Blissey, with the last Gyarados left with an undisclosed amount of its health remaining
Note that items 1-4 were accomplished by approximately 1-1/2 Gyaradoses.
Now, there are obviously a lot of variables here we don't know, but I find it difficult to believe that the majority of similar level tier 2 & 2.5 mons would have perfomed as well against that varying array of pokemon. For example, Flareon and Charizard likely would have done much worse against the first three defenders, and Espeon, Gengar, and Alakazam would not have survived the missed dodges nearly as well. The key word in my previous comment was "generalist."
You can run all the simulations you want, but the game is actually played by human beings, and against a varied gym like that, multiple Gyaradoses in the lineup will be a much better practical choice than multiple Flareons, Gengars, etc.
" I wonder how many other tier 2 & 2.5 mons could have done as well against"
Don't remember their tiers (2, 2.5, 3), but 2 days ago I prestiged vs. my 3026 CP ZH/DG Blissey with 2200-2400 cp mons, 2 at a time, like this: various Alakazams (not optimal ones), various Gengars (3 optimal moves, 1 100% hex/FB), old Flareons, FF/FB Arcanine, Ember/Fireblast Typhlo, FS/OH Charizard. Worked all the time with 1 mon dying and 2nd alive between 10 and 50% of health, eating DG sometimes just to refill quicker the energy bar.
I was glad I fund a usage for all this fire warriors and glass cannons :D.
Again, note that I said "against the same variety of defenders." I was not just referring to the Blissey matchup, although the perfomance against the Blissey is an important part of the story.
Which other pokemon will do as well aginst a similar variety of defenders, has the bulk to survive numerous missed dodges, and has a high enough attack stat to be able to defeat a Blissey that is several levels higher? Dragonite (tier 1) would be one. Maybe Tyranitar (tier 1.5) and Exeggutor (tier 2) as well. But I think it is a short list.
Yeah, I agree gyarados is a pretty good generalist too. He has about the same tankiness of a dragonite ( ie 8 more stam stat, but 4 less def stat ), and a very good attack stat of 237, which means he has the strongest STAB hydropump in game, plus now Dragon Tail, 2nd highest dps quick move in game (https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/quick-moves), which, as a dragon-type move, is not resisted by alot of the more relevant gym defenders meta ( and in fact, advantageous when facing against dragonites )
