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Wigglytuff and Ideal Prestige IVs

For a long time I've operated under the assumption that the most CP-efficient prestigers have IV's with 15 stamina, or 15 stamina and 15 defense, but with 0 attack.

However, today I started thinking about Wigglytuff, who is frequently lauded as a prestiger but has base attack much higher than defense. I started to wonder if it's liked mainly because of its typing, move sets, or possibly stat ratios - because if the latter, it would upend my prestige IV assumptions.

I crunched some numbers of Pokemon that had a max CP of at least 1500 and then divided them into categories based on the order of their base stats (e.g., Stamina > Defense > Attack). Below I list four from each category with the highest % differences between its top stat and the rest.

A. (S>A=D): Lanturn, Snorlax, Dunsparse, Quagsire
B. (S>D>A): Blissey, Lapras, Azumarill, Miltank
C. (S>A>D): Wigglytuff, Vaporeon, Piloswine, Furret
D. (D>S>A): Steelix, Umbreon, Jumpluff, Hypno
E. (D>A>S): Cloyster, Mantine, Skarmory, Himontop
F. (A>S>D): Ursaring, Granbull, Victreebel, Exeggutor
G. (A>D>S): Haunter, Kadabra, Gengar, Dodrio

Type advantages aside, if I had to pick one group as my only prestige crew going forward, I might pick C. Groups A and B don't seem as appealing to me. Am I the only one? If I'm not, might that mean that it's (slightly) better to have higher stamina and attack IVs in a prestiger than it is to have higher stamina and defense, or even pure stamina?

Asked by haltsy6 years 11 months ago
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Answers

Overthinking it IMO. The best prestigers are half-CP with correct typing, period. Alongside that comes dodging ability and gym composition as your main considerations about how you will fare for prestiging.

Prestige performance due to differing stat distributions between identical CP identical moveset mons, if any at all, are going to be too miniscule to bother about.

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by Data10 6 years 12 months ago

The CP formula weights A more than others, so mons with low A in relation to S and D tend to be better prestigers. They also tend to be slower, so it's a matter of balance. For example, Chansey is a great prestiger in terms of how little of its HP bar is lost when training against an attacker with 2x its CP, but battles can be quite slow. So many would prefer not that extreme a ratio between A and S*D. Between S and D, I'd expect S is more beneficial for the charging benefits.

Typing is also critical for prestigers and can compensate for less ideal A/D/S stats, particularly when you get double or triple type bonuses (double effective + resistant)..

Regarding Wigglytuff, prior to the move buffs with Gen2, Pound was the highest DPS quick move, and it also had decent EPS, and was fast enough to dodge everything. Almost anything could be a decent prestiger with Pound, dodging, and no charge move. Among the mons with Pound, I believe Wigglytuff, Jigglytuff, and Chansey were the best ones in terms of low attack in relation to D*S + higher S in relation to D.

This all changed with the Gen 2 move buffs to fight Blissey, and the moves becoming more balanced with one another (high DPS have low EPS, high EPS have low DPS, etc). Pound no longer shines far ahead of the rest, and as such there are better generalist prestigers than Wigglytuff, although it is still useful in many situations.

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That may be true but it assumes that attack isn't any more valuable than S/D when it comes down to winning a battle. I honestly don't know if that is the case. Maybe attack really is more important so the CP number more or less correlates with chance of winning.

Having prestigers with relatively high S and D was much more important under the old model where you only got to pick one prestiger.

I'm with the others. Just pick mons around 50 to 70% the CP of the defender with a good typing for the match up and super effective STAB moves. Super Effective STAB moves is key because it is effectively giving you a higher attack stat for "free" (that is, without bumping up your CP).

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"That may be true but it assumes that attack isn't any more valuable than S/D when it comes down to winning a battle. I honestly don't know if that is the case. Maybe attack really is more important so the CP number more or less correlates with chance of winning."

The damage formula on this site is below. Note that Attack and Defensive both have a linear correlation with damage. Attack is not far more influential than Def in reducing HP/Stamina.

Floor(½∗Move Power∗Atk/Def∗STAB∗Effective)+1

The CP formula is below. Note that it is linearly correlated with Attack, but takes the sqrt of Defense and Stamina. This makes CP be attack heavy, while damage (and corresponding chance of win) is not.

CP = (Attack * Defense^0.5 * Stamina^0.5 * CP_Multiplier^2) / 10

If you don't want to take my word for it, try some sims at pokebattler.com . I'll use VW/PW Tangela vs MS/SE Rhydon with ~1300 and ~2600 CP as an example. Note that the 0 A,15 D/S Tangela can kill 3.1 Rhdyons in a row, while the 15 A, 0 D/S can kill it 2.9 Rhydons... a very slight benefit, but it becomes more significant when dealing with mons that have larger differences between base Attack/Defense/Stamina than the 0-15 IVs.

[0/15/15] (https://www.pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/TANGELA/quickMoves/VINE_WHIP_FAST/cinMoves/POWER_WHIP/levels/22.5/ivs/0FF/defenders/RHYDON/quickMoves/MUD_SLAP_FAST/cinMoves/EARTHQUAKE/levels/28/ivs/EFE/strategies/DODGE_ALL/DEFENSE) -- Power 313.1%, 26.1s, 32 Damage

[15/15/15] (https://www.pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/TANGELA/quickMoves/VINE_WHIP_FAST/cinMoves/POWER_WHIP/levels/20.5/ivs/FFF/defenders/RHYDON/quickMoves/MUD_SLAP_FAST/cinMoves/EARTHQUAKE/levels/27.5/ivs/FFE/strategies/DODGE_ALL/DEFENSE) -- Power 308.5%, 26.1s, 32 Damage

[0/0/0] (https://www.pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/TANGELA/quickMoves/VINE_WHIP_FAST/cinMoves/POWER_WHIP/levels/24.5/ivs/000/defenders/RHYDON/quickMoves/MUD_SLAP_FAST/cinMoves/EARTHQUAKE/levels/28/ivs/EDE/strategies/DODGE_ALL/DEFENSE) -- Power 300.1%, 26.1s, 32 Damage

[15/0/0] (https://www.pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/TANGELA/quickMoves/VINE_WHIP_FAST/cinMoves/POWER_WHIP/levels/20.5/ivs/FFF/defenders/RHYDON/quickMoves/MUD_SLAP_FAST/cinMoves/EARTHQUAKE/levels/27.5/ivs/FFE/strategies/DODGE_ALL/DEFENSE) -- Power 289.6%, 26.1s, 33 Damage

Regarding type counters, yes they are very important. I mentioned this in my earlier post. But mons with the same moveset and same type counters can have significant differences in how effective they are at prestiging due to A/D/S stats.

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Damage done is just half the story. You also need to consider damage taken. You need to multiply def * stamina, so attack^2 seems to make more sense than you give it credit for. In any event, it is likely to just be a rounding error and won't make a real difference in terms of potions used or prestiged gain.

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Also not that both HP and Def have similar effects on your survivability yet Def does so at the cost of DPS (Less damage taken means less energy gained)

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I agree with Conquistador. I keep every mon between 900 and 1500 CP that has an 'A' or 'B' rated attacking moveset. When prestiging, cut the lowest defending mon's CP in half, use type advantages, and go from there. IVs don't matter for mon that you only use for training. Don't over think it.

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IVs don't really matter for prestiging. You want the right CP and Moves. And since CP is calculated from stats, IVs play a role, but a higher level Pokemon with lower IVs could reach the same CP as a lower level with high IVs...

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It's simple enough to create a spreadsheet, pick a couple of matchups that are common for you - then use the damage formula to see exactly how much damage is done over the entire ATT IV range of 0-15. What I found was in many cases there is NO difference for attack = 0 compared to attack = 15, due to the FLOOR() function. Your mileage may vary.

However, I've given up trying for 1/2 CP wins - way too frustrating given lag, dodge bug, etc. I'm just going in with strong attack teams, 200-500 CP under the lowest defender and try to beat as many of them as possible - love it when there's a lineup of Vapes/Rhydon so I can start a battle with a fully charged Solar Beam!

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