Who will be better for dialga
I'm wondering, with groudon out, the mass availability of breloom, and out current stocks of machamp, which of these will be the best for Dialga?
I know that Machamp's DPS far exceeds that of groudon, but will machamp be able to take the high powered hits from Dialga? I know that hyper beam snorlax would basically one shot machamp and at times it struggled to get off charge moves and dialga has MUCH more attack (if machamp cant take the hit, theres no way in heck breloom can) So if this is the case, ie machamp not surviving one charge cycle, and not getting off charge moves, would that make Groudon the superior counter due to much extra bulk?
Answers
My guess is the answer will still be Machamp/Breloom over Groudon against any moveset. Draco Meteor will potentially be a one-shot (assuming your Machamp has already taken some damage from quick moves. It's for sure one-shotting Breloom). Even in that scenario, however, Machamp should be able to get in a few Dynamic Punches before the next Meteor.
Groudon will have higher TDO, especially against Thunder, but in pretty much all scenarios, Machamp should pull ahead on DPS by virtue of having significantly better quick/charge moves.
LOL Groudon isn’t even in the ballpark ... Your Biases against Machamp and all fighting types is showing yet again.... Maybe you should worry about what we are raiding NOW and stop worrying about what is coming down the road ... I’m sure your local Discord is getting tired of carrying you, all the while you are telling them how useless the current supreme counters they are using are
you seem to be missing the times I said machamp was good, or just selectively forgetting. case and point "machamps DPS far exceeding groudon's" Not me saying "oh yeah, groudon way outlasts machamp, its the better counter by far" It was an inquiring because of prior cases making me wonder
I asked because it is a legitimate question I felt needed asking, look at breloom, its DPS is higher than machamp, but generally agreed to not be better because machamp could take hits better, something not unique to just machamp/breloom, but also raikou/electivire, tyranitar/weavile, roserade/venusaur/breloom, dragonite/salamence, the only difference being those have already been asked and answered. I was applying a similar question here as I know from things such as Hyperbeam snorlax raids, as I actually said, machamp would get knocked out by the attack before getting of a number of charge moves against certain sets.
Someone really cant let go of a time I didnt get how the game worked, and have since understood things better
Yeah, because im going to say use aggron agaisnt tyranitar, or ampharos against kyogre, yeah. Are you serious? I just asked a question about if X is true, does it mean this will be better, not stating groudon is the wholly better option. Theres making a comment about me making mistakes before, and then theres acting like im stating something completely different in the questuon
Machamp doesn't even remotely get oneshot by a HB from Snorlax. In fact Machamp can narrowly (but fairly reliably) beat ZH/HB Snorlax in a gym fight without any dodging, both being perfect level 40. HB deals 107 damage out of Machamp's 175 hp pool.
As for Dialga, pokebattler gives Machamp an averaged TTW of 561s, while Groudon gets 657s, a large difference. Machamp is the clear winner against any moveset while Groudon ranks between 6th and 8th. Looking at it in more detail, Draco Meteor deals 150 damage to Machamp and 108 damage to Groudon, which means Machamp will mostly die to it and Groudon will almost always tank the first one.
But it seems the DPS difference is so large that it makes Groudon's better survivability meaningless. Machamp only gets 2 deaths more against MC/DM despite looking like it's much glassier, because it clears the raid that much faster and with more reliable DPS.
I may be wrong, but I thought I read that in clear weather Groudon will out damage Machamp.
I think it would make sense to lead with Breloom then go through Machamp afterwards. There may be some energy wasted on Machamp if he dies to the first charge move, but typically I can get 2-3 DPs off before Machamp dies to a first charge move in other raids.
Breloom only really makes sense as an opener.
Groudon may make sense as an anchor. Being able to finish the raid in your initial party without re-entering will increase your overall DPS unless the anchor is significantly weaker. So if you're short-manning with enough people to kill before fainting out but also few enough that all Breloom+Machamp would faint out - then a Groudon anchor would make sense.
And of course in clear weather, Groudon is better DPS and TDO (assuming I'm remember correctly about the DPS).
In clear weather, I knew that, as a while back I saw in clear weather their DPS was essentially identical. But I dont like looking at things in specific weather boost, simply because that more often than not gives them the advantage.
Might anchor with groudon now that I hear this, I tend to raid with a group of 4-5 people, all of us are pretty optimized, not super optimized, like mass trashing machop for luckies and such, but good iv counters, etc
In clear weather, definitely bringing groudon, the DPS diference is negligible, but not the TDO
Machamp will be the go-to answer in most cases. Consider the following options if you want to go for style points, information pulled from Pokebattler:
- Consider Groudon if you're not short-manning and want to avoid reentry (generally fewer deaths, higher TTW, higher estimator number)
- Consider a Breloom or two to lead against Thunder sets (fewer deaths than Machamp against TH, lower TTW, lower estimator number)
- Consider a Blaziken filler against Iron Head if revive conscious (fewer deaths than Groudon against IH, lower TTW, lower estimator number)
- 2-bar moves > 1-bar moves, making Bachamp/Breloom > Groudon/Blaziken
