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Useless Legedaries Going forward?

the disappointment of Raikou has led me to ask this, but what legendaries going forward are going to be useless? This is strictly for raids, gym offense isnt important as any of my already powered up non legendary pokemon take blissey down with even neutral damage with no effort (and unlike raid bosses, gym defenders are rarely constant)

Being that gen IV's main legendaries are dragon types, and taking current/passed tier 4/3 raids into consideration the three birds (yes, even articuno, dialga and palkia arent weak to ice) and the beasts all seem like they wouldn't be worth powering up, mew and the yet to be added for the rest of us Celebi wont be making much impact, of course the Regi's arent going to be much use, and latias is just inferior latios, who already seems dicey because other dragon or psychic types that dont need RC or Rayquaza/Mewtwo.

That really just leaves the weather trio (both Groudon and Rayquaza are threatened by some gen IV pokemon, both by Garchomp, in Ray's case all the gen iv dragons, and groudon from Ryperior, and mamoswine so they're position's dicey) and Mewtwo.(with its threat being in the form of the gen IV dragons and garchomp as possible generalists, and Giratina in specialist Ghost match ups, though im not sure how STAB would match up against mewtwo's raw stats)

It seems like the only real safe bet for legendaries is just Kyogre, followed by mewtwo and depending on movesets of legendaries, the rest of the weather trio. As it seems few other raid bosses have legendaries other than these being supreme counters that nonlegendaries cant deal with

Anything I missed? And this very well could be made irrelivent if gen IV completely changes the raid bosses

Asked by MetagrossMaxis5 years 7 months ago
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Answers

Well the elite legendaries can still serve you if (a)their conpetitiors get weak movesets or(b) you don't have them. If you have this fear, just power up legendaries to L30 or L35.

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Well you are very correct about raikou, mew and celebi. The Regis are already trash, so they were never good. The birds are ok just not the best. The beasts may go down. The weather trio I think should be fine. TBH IDK how things will be I’ll just wait and find out.

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It's kinda unfortunate, but true, that a lot of legendaries people put a lot of stuff into wont amount to much soon

I'm somewhat glad as I didnt put any RC into anything but my kypgre and Mewtwo because I dont have any legendaries other than the worst of the worst aside from mewtwo and kyogre, I put only my extra Articuno candy from raid day into my best one

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by TTT 5 years 7 months ago

Not quite sure why Raikou is a disappointment.

I would say Kyogre and Mewtwo are definitely safe, as you've mentioned. Raikou is probably 3rd safest for gen 4, followed by Groudon and Rayqyaza. While Raikou is likely to be eclipsed by Zekrom (although this still depends on him getting double electric moves - don't forget that Ho-oh didn't get a fire OR flying fast attack...) that's still a ways off and we all knew this already.

So, on to why Raikou is probably the 3rd safest going in to gen 4:
Yes, he faces two threats in Electivire and Magnezone. However both will only be threats if they get Wild Charge, and honestly it doesn't seem likely for either of them. Electabuzz doesn't have Wild Charge in his current move pool, so it would seem silly to add it when a Thundershock-Thunderbolt Electivire would still be a top-tier attacker without overtaking the legendary Raikou (Electivire would probably get Thunderpunch, Thunderbolt, and Thunder, as his possible charge moves). Magnezone is even less likely to get Wild Charge, given he'll almost definitely get at least one steel charge move, which limits how many electric charge moves he can get (and again, Wild Charge doesn't seem to be the most obvious pick of them - Zap Cannon and Discharge seem far more likely...). So I'd argue the most likely case is neither gets Wild Charge and Raikou remains king. However it's possible Electivire gets it (leaving Raikou a close 2nd in DPS, but far tankier and thus more reliable) or Magnezone gets it (leaving Raikou a slight edge in DPS but not quite as good TDO if Magnezone has a resistance). Just because GamePress has gone apeshit crazy over the gen 4 electric type evolutions due to the possibility of getting wild charge, doesn't mean they'll actually get it.

Likewise on to Groudon - I'd say it's near impossible that Rhyperior gets Drill Run... Rhyperior might top Ttar as a rock attacker, but I'd put the odds of him getting Smack Down at 50-50. If Niantic want to make Rhyperior a best-of-type, they only need to make it best of one type, and they're more likely to overtake Ttar who has another moveset (Dark) and was easy to get (due to CD) anyways, than they are to outclass Groudon.

Finally Rayquaza - currently exists as the best Dragon AND Flying attacker, and a great generalist. While he faces many threats to all of these claims, the fact that he has multiple claims helps him. It will likely be a long time before the gen 4 dragons that outclass him are able to actually fully replace him in teams though. I'd like to see him remain the best flying attacker if he gets outclassed in Dragon, and have the flying threats be rewarded elsewhere (no need to make Honchkrow top tier and if it is let it be dark as Ttar will still be heavily favored in TDO so you'd probably lead with Honchkrow and follow with 5 Ttar, and Togekiss should not get a double flying set, but rather get a double-fairy set).

Anyways, my take on it. I don't think the comments people are making are fair right now. Definitely don't use resources on the stuff that MIGHT be threatened, but also don't act like they're definitely being replaced. All 5 of the current crew of top-tier pokemon in the game will potentially remain that way through gen 4 (and just be joined by other top-tier pokemon of other types) (6 if you count Ttar).

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The main question about raikou is wht does it match?

Not much, theres not a lot of flying type in gen IV that would be either worth raiding or warneting a legendary, tyranitar with smach down does just as well without the price of RC, and dragons resist electric, being electric only matches water and flying, that isnt really much coverage, while rayquazas dragon set only covers dragons, its shear DPS in neutral match ups is what makes it better. Even though those electric types can rivel raikou in DPS/DTO, the question then falls to what they cover, DPS is somewhat meaningless if theres no advantage to be had by powering them up

I think its likely they'd give drill run to Rhyperior, it be good to sell raid passes to get Rhydon, then after they release precipice blades groudon to sell more raid passes. Theres Dragonite Tyrantiar and Gengar that are the best attackers of both their respective types, so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for them to make Rhyperior best in both, as well as it would be a good way to sell raid passes, ive heard people buying a lot more since they added kirlia to the raids, if they made other top attackers the same way, they'd make more money

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No, I dont, but this is specifically about legendaries. It is simple logic, if soemthign comes at a high price (RC) and doesnt give much benefit (not matching raid bosses) theres not much reason to put those resources into it

My choice in words was useless, not worthless, something can still be valued even if it isnt useful, case and point several legacy move pokemon

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How people spend rare candies is up to them. It's a top 5 electric attacker for the duration of the game, which doesn't make it a bad investment in any scenario. I'm sure my electric team will be Zapdos, Jolteon, Electrive, Magnezone, Raikou, Zekrom.

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Yes, that is true, but would would it be wise to invest them in something that doesnt have much in terms of match ups?

A similar thing can be said about groudon, its the best ground type, but ground doesnt cover much, same with a psychic mewtwo or flying rayqiaza, all best of their type, but not much use in terms of relevant coverage

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You are so obsessed with matchups. This isn't the original games where your whole team can be KOd if you dont have a pure ground type. A Dragonaite will still tear through almost anything. Get a fire type to take care of the ice and fairy pokemon, and Kyrogre for rock types. Don't over think it.

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MAtch ups are the best way to access a pokemon;s viability and what to use going forward, after all haste makes waste and when it comes to rare candy, and thigns like buddy pokemon distnace, I dont think anyone would want to waste those.

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Not that any are extremely likely raid bosses:
Togekiss - Raikou should be the best counter, with Ttar second?
Yanmega - Raikou should at least be a contender (at least with rain)?
Honchkrow - Raikou should be the best counter, with Ttar second (admittedly Ttar being significantly better TDO).

I think it's next to zero chance that Togekiss becomes a raid boss, but both Yanmega and Honchkrow seem possible. Yanmega due to how hard it is to find Yanma in some parts of the world, and Honchkrow due to how common Murkrow is (i.e. they're opposites).

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Honkrow needs a dusk stone, so that would rule it out on special evolution requirements, the more likely would be just murkrow. and yanmega maybe, but Tyrantiar would still outclass raikou in even rain unless its got a double bug set
. As well as against honchkrow, it resists both its dark and flying stab, unlike raikou who only resists flying STAB

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And a tier 4 Empoleon if I might add
(same point, not extremely likely, but possible)

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"Disappointment" and "Raikou" aren't words that should appear in the same sentence. Plain and simple. Raikou's status as the top electric type is barely threatened by Magnezone and Electivire. Electivire will only out-DPS Raikou by 3% at the cost of a massive amount of bulk and that's -if- it gets Wild Charge. It's likely that Raikou's crown won't be entirely taken until Zekrom in Gen 5, which probably won't appear for another year.

That said, it's true that electric-types won't have a whole lot going for them in the gen IV legendary raid meta. What we have coming in terms of new tier 1-4 bosses remains to be seen, so Raikou could very well have uses against some of those. It will also still be a decent gym generalist, and the top option against any Vaporeon, Milotic, and Gyarados appearing in gyms.

In short, a Raikou already powered up is far from a wasted investment. However, I can agree that pouring rare candy and dust into one caught from a research task is probably not a good idea right now.

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My main point about Raikou's disappointment IS the lack of use for it, DPS is meaningless If it doesnt match anything worth while.

And on the water types, Vap and milotic can be dealt with easily with FP venasaur or alolan egg, and Smack down tyranitar bring's down Gyarados, all of which having wider usage than Raikouwith out the RC cost, its usage seemed to be downgraded from a premier generalist to not that useful specialist with the addition of new anti-water/flying types. I dont like that electric's not that useful, i'm instinct and want my shiny Zappy to be good, but if a pokemon better than it isnt useful, than thats really all that needs to be said

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How much of this is salt that you weren't playing Q3/4 2017 and didn't get a level 20 one you could have been using all this time? Go on. I'll wait.

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Not exactly sure I understand the question

I;ve only been playing 5 months and never found myself in a position needing one, much like machamp, I heard all these great thigns about it only to find it amounted to naught of what they said, with something else easily able to do its job and more. FP venasaur, and my Eggtree army did great against Kyogre, amphy did as well against blizzard sets

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This comment really explains your whole problem though.

You didn't play when Raikou first came out and you could get it at 20/25.
You didn't have Raikou for either of Kyogre's appearances or Suicine's one appearance, so you didn't have a Raikou for when it WAS the best possible attacker.

Now you're finally able to get a level 15 Raikou, and you're upset that it's not worth powering up.

I'm in the same scenario in that I was around level 32 and quit the game in February 2017 right before the first raids got released (that timing...). I came back at the very end of April 2018, just barely not having enough time to get a research Moltres. I've obviously not been happy about not having Moltres/Entei/Raikou for several raids where they've been the premier attackers. I obviously wasn't happy when Body-Slam Snorlax was the research reward instead of the legendary beasts (since I actually had FIVE of those and with trading having just come out I thought I had some value to trade for a low IV level 25 (weather boosted) Raikou/Entei once I got their 'dex entry from research).

The difference is I recognize that's my fault and a problem not shared with that many other players. I'm not going to go around acting like Raikou isn't a top 3-7 (depending on your placement) pokemon right now. I'll acknowledge that it'd be ridiculous for me to power one up at this point, but anyone who powered up one from a while ago, got loads of great use out of it, and continue to have a premier pokemon at a high level - they aren't looking at it as a poor investment. It was a GREAT investment. It just isn't a great (or even good) investment anymore, at least not from level 15.

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Yes, back then it was useful, that I do recognize, but its use has been almost completely diminished.

I wouldn't have powered one up regardless, it matched 2 pokemon, one of which is dex filler. I dont think matching one pokemon, even if its a legendary would warrant powering a legendary up with RC, even with my articuno a pokemon that matches several pokemon right now and poekmon I know will come back, I wont power up, if I wouldn't power up a more useful legendary with wider coverage, i wouldn't power another one up that has even less usefulness, since day one of starting, my RC were always set aside for Rayquaza and the gen IV dragons, even if they wouldn't have been out fir a long time, it would mean all the more RC for when they arrive, I knew Raikou would always be inferior to zekrom and made useless after Kyogre, there's be no reason to power one up asi would see all that RC would be wasted

Im a person who thinks long term, even if something's great now, but wont be in the next gen, I'd rather deal with taking that loss from an even greater reward later

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So you play this game based on what might be in YEARS? You have a full 6 months between each generation, which is more than the total amount of time you have been playing.

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No, if something useful 2 full gens, ie, something like being useful agaisnt a large number of things all of gen 2 and all of gen 3, then yes, that would be worth it, but this is 2 *very* specific battles, thats not worth it

If something is going to be outclassed by soemthing 3 gens down the line, and it useful for a lot, then yes I will power it up, but raikous use dies after Kyogre, its use lasted not even a gen and a half, again matching 2 very specific pokemon, and not much else

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I would, but no one wants to hear the pokemon they've spent all that time/candy getting will be made useless sooner than they think. theres a difference between a pokemon being outclasses and being less relevant

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Tell that to my Vaporeons who earned hundreds of coins under the old gym system.

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Also? That long-term viewpoint doesn't quite work. To get those good rewards later. Ya gotta invest now.

(The question is just to make sure you pay attention to the statement, before you say you don't understand.)

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How does it not? A high level nonlengendary of the same type can preform as well as a decently leveled legendary without the cost of rare candy, yes the legendary would be better, but high level legendaries are generally only necessary for 3 man legendary raids or some tier 4 duos, not 4-5 man raids of either.

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Either way it's an investment. I didn't say you had to invest in legendaries. Sinking an extra 169K dust (the cost from 28 to 40 for a non-Lucky) for a level 40 Gyarados versus a level 28 Kyogre (yes, Kyogre is best in class; it's just the one I knew the Supreme point for) is still a hefty investment for many players.

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But its an investment of Rare candy, thats the main thing, if it was standard candy for it then theres be no issue with it, but rarecandy are just that, rare. Its a lot easier to get say 200 karp candy than it is to get 200 rare candy

Star dust is somewhat inconsequential with double/triple dust events somewhat often and starpieces, as well as berrying gym pokemon with all those nanab berries

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Yes, but how does it fair agaisnt its psychic attacks? not nearly as well as tyranitar, or boosted as frequently as its rock set. Both of which have wider use than Raikou

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If they ever figure out PvP then a maxed Raikou really would help. #1 vs two very commonly held tanks: Kyogre and Lugia, in that scenario they might occasionally be changed to Kyogre blizzard and Lugia hydropump, too. Raikou was bad against: Groudon, Rayquaza, Latis, Regis.
However, great or pretty good against just about every other legendary

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But would there be any reason to do PvP, if even added? unless there's much of a reason to do it (like rewards for winning with raids), then the best at it wont matter, as well as like you said, it does loose to a number of other pokemon, and in the nest gen, it will loose to a lot more legendaries that are a lot more high powered, namely dialga

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Raikou can easily tank a Future Sight from Lugia and live until the second one. If you dodge the first one, you can live until the third one. Raikou is quite tanky and generally speaking has no problem with tanking neutral damage from anything.
Weatherboosted Tyranitar is better than Raikou, true, but that's only one weather type. Majority of the time Raikou is better.

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Maybe the lesson is that this game isn't as hard as you want it to be. This game isn't difficult at all, it is dependent on your stardust. Do you think I would bat an eye at anything if I had 5 mil stardust to blow?

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Stardust and candies, you can have all the dust you want, but unless you have the candies to power up, theres not much you can do.

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Stardust is much more limiting. I have the candies to take in 6 level 40 Jolteons, which dont perform much worse than legendaries.

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Gyarados used Hydro Pump! Tyranitar fainted.
Milotic used Blizzard! Venusaur fainted.

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If the even get to use those, keep in mind tht gyarados rarely carries hydro pump for defense, one bars dont work overly well

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The thing is that none of us know what the raid scene will look like in the future. Just to give you an example, there are not many legendary raids where Kyogre is a supreme counter, but there are plenty of use cases for Tier 3 and 4, for example. In that sense, for me Kyogre is still one of the most useful Pokémon in the game.

Against water types in gyms, I still prefer Raikou to all of those you mentioned. It's quicker and deals more neutral damage to other typical gym defenders, so it can still be used as generalist. That's something that can't be said about those grass attackers, especially since Dragonite is a typical Blisslax guardian. BTW, smack down Ttar against Gyarados gets quite punished with waterfall, not to mention early window HP if it fires one off... against TS/WC Raikou it doesn't have enough time for that.

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I think that the points and counterpoints have been stated over and over. I personally find joy in using my Raikou whenever it is either super effective or even neutral. It was worth the resources and I will not regret it. I am sure that I will continue to use it and find it useful in the future. The decision on how to use your resources is strictly up to you but exhausting the argument that it or other legendaries will be useless moving forward is strictly your opinion.

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The thing that makes you so annoying is you ask more questions than anyone else, yet you act like you are the expert, tho you have only played for 6 months. Why are you asking questions if you have all the answers?

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I just apply what I know from the main series to this game. I've played the main series for generations, and im just wondering if theres anything ive overlooked when applying that background knowledge, most players where im from dont play the main series or know anything about the series in general, so I am who they go to for help, even before I started playing

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