GamePress

Safest Bets for Gen 4?

I know we have the guide on the top 10 Pokemon to look for and most people (myself included) likely have some idea of what to power up and what to wait on, but is there a Safest Bets guide in the works for Gen 4 similar to the one for Gen 3? It was nice to read from the perspective of what we already have as opposed to what's coming.

Asked by TheBiggestLeaf5 years 8 months ago
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by hkn 5 years 8 months ago

https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/best-attackers-type has some information. In summary:

1. Mewtwo and Groudon are very safe.
2. Many Dragon-type legendaries in Gen IV, but you would want to power up your current Dragon-types to raid them.
3. Ice-types are under great threat from Mamoswine.

Wonder why that article does not list Darkrai as a potential threat to Tyranitar.

If gym defence matters in your area, rest assured that Blissey is a safe investment.

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From what I understand, Darkrai has good DPS, but is very glassy. One could replace one Ttar with two Darkrai, assuming the stats and movesets come out as we expect. Good addition to the team, but not an outlier over the Pareto frontier.

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Darkrai is Mythical so I doubt we will see him for a very long time and if we do we may only get 1 so Ttar is still very safe.

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Maybe because Tyranitar's got a lot more bulk, but I agree, darkrai could take it, but given it's likely going to be a research pokemon and will be available late gen, it may not be viable

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Pretty certain that Kyogre will always be a safe investment as well. There is Palkia in Gen 4 but Kyogre is bulkier and likely just as good. Don't believe Palkia will have a water STAB moveset either.

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True but Kyogre will always be in the debate for best Water attacker regardless. Can't go wrong, he is a beast.

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But even with that, Palkia's higher fire and electric resistances can come into play, as well as we dont know when megas are going to be added

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The more I look at Gen 4 the more truth there is to KESA's comment below. Gen 4 has a LOT of potential new stars on many different typing fronts, but many of them depend on what moves they get, including Palkia on the water front. If it doesn't get a water fast move then Kyogre will reign as the undisputed water type god across all gens. Not that Palkia still doesn't have potential to give Kyogre a run for its money, just that it will always play second fiddle to the big blue whale.

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I dont think blissey's a safe bet, we've all got armies of machamp and haryama lined up to tear into them, I think the safest bets for nonlegendaries on offense would be electabuzz, piloswine, Rhydon and Togepi(gen IV evolutions likely to take the spots as the best attackers of their type) and current reliable pokemon like tyranitar ad dragonite. Machamp i'd say is somewhat risky as we have Togekiss, a much tankier gardevoir that will likely have a better fast move, but its raid use will be on and off too
For legendaries, Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, maybe latios, but the others dont seem to have much purpose as they're going to be resisted by the gen IV dragons

For defense, Togekiss as its more defensive that gardevoir and can dent machamp when slotted between fighting weak tanks, blissey as always is a good option for defense if not placed a wholly fighting weak gym

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When your best counter to a Pokémon takes about a minute to knock it down only once, you’re gonna be a safe bet. Until Blissey becomes as easy and quick to beat like other defenders, it will be safe bet. Which is forever.

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Blissey already is easy to take out, I dont get why people think it takes so long, its like 40 seconds to knock out, its a mild annoyance not an actual problem

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Especially if you go to a park to clear all the gyms for more items. You’re there for items and catching, not a few quarters. Other people might be at the park, too...they know to berry the Blissey. In person, a GRB isn’t always needed to give a noticeable boost, all the berries can help. For remote feeding, GRB is the only meaningful berry.

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Beg to differ, it may have the stats, but when a pokemon I known for being the best defender, people get its counters specifically for that reason (isnt that the whole reason machamp's worth anything in gym offense?)
and as a result, that dents it bulk, it may have coverage moves, but its attack is so small it doesnt do anything. The reason pokemon like gardevoir are good defenders is because of this, they may not have the best tanky stats, but becayse their weaknesses are trash, hard to get, or has coverage with stats that can actuall threaten counters, they're a lot better

Copare gardevoir Vs blissey on defense, blissey cant threaten any attackers with its attack becayse its to predictable, but gardevoir can cover most of its counters with neutral attacks that hurt a lot, confusion takes care of poison types, and shadow ball threatens ghost types and steel's nonexistent in offense aside from metagross that's rare and weak to shadow ball, and scizor which still takes neutral damage from shadow ball.

Most players are of the "tanky stats = tanky mon" mentality, which isnt true, look at aggron and tyranitar, or slaking and snorlax, all go down in mere seconds because everyone's got what they are weak to, yes. blissey takes longer, but not much

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You are the funniest person on this site. You hate Machamp and think Blissey is worthless because of Machamp. I certainly agree that a gym with all the same weaknesses is not good, which is why I always throw in Clefable. But EVERYTHING has a counter. Grandevior gives me an excuse to use Metagross. All that being said Blissey handles its counters much better than any other pokemon, and it isn't close. Not only does it take the longest, it has both a fast move and charge move that hit Machamp for SE damage. I don't know why you always try to make the most difficult arguments.

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The reason Mons go down so quickly in gyms is entirely because of the current gym meta and motivation loss over time. Say what you will, but Blissey is hands-down the single best defender in the game due to it's tanky stats, counter coverage, and normal-typing which gives it only one weakness (fighting). The only reason Gardevoir is a decent defender is because it forces people to switch out from Machamp (which they're bringing to deal with Blissey/Snorlax/Chansey) when placed between two of the normal-type tanks.

"its attack is so small it doesnt do anything"

As an attacker, especially in raids, you are correct. Blissey's DPS is abysmal. As a defender? Go ahead and attack into Blissey with a Machamp and don't dodge those dazzling gleams, and let me know how that goes. 😉

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I still remember you calling for a Blissey nerf:

https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/q-a/nerf-blissey

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Everything's relative. 40 seconds doesn't sound like much until you compare it to the 10-15 seconds it takes Machamp to wipe other defenders out. 40 seconds is plenty of time for someone to GRB the rest of the gym.

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But if someone going to take a gym down that fast, and I know because I do this to people, and they keep golden razzing while I try to take it down, I will make them run out their GRB, and 60 GRB on one gym isnt soemthing most players are willing to spend when there isnt a raid at a gym

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Hemorrhaging xp and stardust and egg walking and research tasks...to get 50 coins you very likely could have already received.

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He's saying you standing at a gym and fighting through 60+ GRB is time that could be better spent doing other things, like finding a different gym to take that isn't actively being defended or walking/catching/researching.

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Catching pokemon isnt too important because more of what you catch in the wild isnt good, the stardust and candy are decent, but thats about it and most of the better research that gets what im looking for are the battle in gyms ones.
Also walking back and forth while fighting gyms helps with the distance
Figthign al those golden razz also helps to level gyms up a lot faster

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Disagree with you there. I catch everything I can because dust makes the world go around. But that's the beauty of the game, everyone has different play styles. I myself never got into gymming in the old system and still kick myself for not having done so.

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We can only speculate so much man, all of this is based on what we already know. Who can prepare for some crazy new revamp that only those at Niantic would know of?

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I especially haven’t cared about GRB for the past 4 weeks. Just as likely you are fighting off someone’s 2nd account GRB. Plus there usually is some kind of xp, stardust, candy bonus going on. Also shinies missed.

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Unless the shiny;s of a pokemon I particularly care about, I dont care if I miss it,, ok shiny wailmer, plusslie, minun, and everything other than a handful of CD or legendary species are a thing, but is it useful for anything? not really, its like getting a perfect IV ratata, ok you have it, whoopie, but its just a collctor's piece

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I think the point being made is that Blissey easily takes twice as long to knock out compared to any other defender, while possessing excellent counter-coverage with Zen Headbutt and Dazzling Gleam. Plus, a leveled up Blissey with more than half motivation will easily deter lower level players from knocking your gym down, which can be crucial for racking up defending time and helping ensure you get coins. If gym defenders matter in your area, then Blissey matters, and Blissey will remain the undisputed queen of gym defense barring a big change to the stat conversion formula. Thus, it's a safe bet.

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But at the same time a blissey invites challengers to knock it out

Keep in mind tanky stats dont mean anything if the whole gyms weak to a common type, as stated by other people in previous questions, if a whole gym's fighting weak, you can just use machamp of soemthign to knock out everything with counter and save d-punch for blissey/lax/etc,

thats 40 seconds if you dont go into the fight with a charge attack ready and its at full motivation, if its full motivation but have d-punch ready, its gone in 30 or less, as well as you only get the notification for gym under attack when its on the last battle before knock out, which lasts all of 5 seconds, if you apply a little forethought to how you take blissey down, they're a freaking joke

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You gotta remember a majority of the players likely aren't us hardasses who browse sites like these and plan ahead. There's still a lot of "filthy casuals" out there who see defenders with CP values over 3k and don't bother.

While it's true that Blissey is like many other top-tier defenders in that Machamp makes short work of them, its insane bulk makes it a larger speed bump than the rest. Nothing else in the series comes close to its massive bulk.

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But that 'insane' bulk is dented by the availability of its weakness, thats what ive been saying, its bulky, but because its known for that, people get what its weak to, thereby effectively reducing its bulk.

YEs, theres casual players, but this isnt about players who see it and flee, this is about youre already fighting it

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Some very casual players might normally only place in a gym already their color. Those players might get a task: fight in a gym x number of times. Great likelihood they find a weak gym to complete that task. I CTM everything I might even remotely use. Some might have never even seen 5 CTMs in their lives

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Knowing and using Blissey's weaknesses reduces it's effective bulk indeed, but it remains above any other pokemon'sbulk. It still takes longer to defeat Blissey with Machamp than any other pokemon with proper counter (or just with a generalist counter which may be enough). I am not saying that it's hard to knock out Blissey, it's easy: just use Machamp ou Hariyama. Only that it takes time and that's annoying, which is often enough of a deterrent for attackers.

Yes, Gardevoir has excellent coverage... of fighting pokemon. Who uses Machamps against Gardevoir? No need to go for Metagross, strong pokemon with neutral efficiency will be enough to shred Gardevoir. Groudon for example. Or even Charizard which resist fairy moves.

Gardevoir is a good defender because Blissey is a good defender. A gym with Gardevoir and no Blissey is far easier to take down and will attract far more attackers than a gym with Blissey and no Gardevoir.

It's speculation, but I think you're wrong when you say Blissey attracts attackers. A gym with Blissey, Snorlax, Slaking, Chansey, Lapras and Walrein with full motivation, even if all are weak to fighting, takes a lot of time to take down and is a strong deterrent. Personnally I would rather go for any gym defended bo other pokemon, even if I need to switch 2-3 attackers. It's just less annoying than having to beat those normal tanks.

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Thing about Togekiss is that it's secondairy typing isn't as beneficial as Gardevoir's. Togekiss being part flying opens up electric, rock, and ice type weaknesses, while Gardevoir's only counters are niche in their use (poison, steel, ghost). A Raikou will dismantle Togekiss about as fast as Machamp handles the rest of the gym. While true that Togekiss will force a switch, it has a lot more angles to attack it from.

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Why does the fact that Togekiss is coming in Gen 4 make Machamp a riskier investment? It's not like you'd ever use Machamp against one. As far as fighting-types go, I don't think Machamp will have a contender until Conkeldurr in Gen 5 (and even then, it'll depend on the moves Conkeldurr learns), so it should still be the top pick of it's type.

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Thats my point, you wouldn't use one agaisnt it, so investing in it would be a waste of dust

Lucario and infernape are also in this gen, and Lucario's resistance to fairy and psychic, as well as acces to more moves (which could be better than machamp's) could also close that gap

By gen V, it's going to be put out of use by the swords of justice, or conkeldurr, not to mention all of the upcoming legendaries that wil resist fighting in gen IV on, its use will be part time n gyms, or getting the Actual counters to the legendaries

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Lucario has less bulk than Blaziken, which itself is inferior to Machamp despite having a subtype that resists fairy. Unless Aura Sphere gets added as a better charge move than Dynamic Punch Machamp will likely still come out on top. Infernape has lower attack and bulk than Machamp and Blaziken and will likely remain dex filler.

Usually when the term "risky" gets thrown around it isn't relative to counters coming out. It's relative to future releases that have potential to do its job better. A good example would be that powering up that shiny Articuno you just got is risky because Mamoswine threatens to outclass every ice type.

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And if Lucario gets better moves, it will outclass machamp, even if it doesnt have as much bulk, its steel typing makes up for that against fairy/psychic moves (ie what blissey has), as everyone says on here, DPS is the name of the game, so bulk shouldn't be as important (thats what everyone uses to defend machamp) not to mention its mega evolution, something we all know is coming, so yes, i'd say its risky to power one up, when it's going to get outclassed, it may not be today, or tomorrow, but when it does, its going to get outclasses

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Gonna be honest, I actually did forget about M-Lucario. Let me math out its stats and get back to you on it.

That's also a pretty big "if" since at this point it relies on new moves being added. With the moves we have now, an extra 2 attack points for significantly less bulk isn't enough to outclass Machamp. Since damage gets floored IIRC Lucario doing 18.9 DPS and Machamp hitting 18.4 DPS still rounds down to 18 DPS in both cases.

And the typing, we've already seen with Blaziken resisting Dazzling Gleam it doesn't make it any more bulky than Machamp against it. It's still too frail.

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Okay, so based on my math we'd be looking at the following stats for M-Lucario:
A: 310
D: 185
S: 140

This gives it a titanic attack stat over Machamp with slightly less overall bulk (S*D):

M-Lucario: 140 * 185 = 25900
Machamp: 180 * 162 = 29160

Based on numbers alone yes, M-Lucario will stomp Machamp. Mega evolution is a whole other level of speculation though: When will we see it? How will game mechanics change for it? How rare will Lucario/Riolu be in the case of needing candy to use mega forms [speculative, yet something to consider]? Will players only be able to use one mega per fight like in the main series? If so, you'll still need a team of something to back it up. Depending on when megas come out best bets would either be Machamp again (if they come out during Gen 4), Conkeldurr if Gen 5 pre-musketeer trio, or said musketeer trio if not until after them.

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"Thats my point, you wouldn't use one agaisnt it, so investing in it would be a waste of dust"

Saying it's a waste of dust to power up something because it's useless against a Mon that's meant to counter it is not a very solid argument. By that logic, is Raikou then also a waste of dust because Rhyperior is coming in Gen 4? Machamp is an attacker, not a defender, so its merit should be decided based on how it performs as an attacker in matchups where it can excel.

"Lucario's resistance to fairy and psychic, as well as acces to more moves (which could be better than machamp's) could also close that gap"

Luucario's resistances alone won't give it an edge over Machamp if your goal is DPS output (which it should be). Lucario would need access to Counter (or a new better fighting quick move) and a charge move that's better than Dynamic Punch in order to edge out Machamp.

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I've said that to him countless times, using Raikou vs Groudon as an example yet we still have this argument. If powering up a Pokemon was useless because it had counters then literally nothing would be worth powering up because that's how type matchups work.

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I got curious and mathed out Conkeldurr's stats. We're looking at a/d/s/ of 243/172/210 if I ran the numbers right. With it outclassing Machamp on every front stat-wise they'd have to actively conspire against it move-wise for it to not be the new fighting type king. Still, Machamp being the, well, champ for 4 gens in a row is nothing to scoff at.

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I think it's all going to come down to movesets.

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It's impossible to predict incoming movesets so no pokemon that's not out yet is a safe bet, making all cross-gen evos maybes. Prepare for some of them being good but don't count on it.

Some pretty safe bets IMO:

Machamp: Gallade is the only potential competition and would require a big moveset shakeup to outrank Machamp. Also has a good legendary matchup in Dialga.

Groudon: Even if Garchomp or Rhyperior becomes better due to movesets, it won't be by much. Groudon's stats are monstrous and it has two good legendary matchups incoming in Dialga and Heatran.

Blissey: Nothing in all generations comes close in bulk.

Psychic types: Alakazam and Espeon are the top 2 non-legendaries in all generations and none of the legendaries can compete with Mewtwo.

Kyogre: Even if Palkia gets a water quick move, Kyogre is at worst a close second.

Dragon-types: You need them to raid Palkia, even if they could face stiff competition from both Dialga and Palkia.

Dark Tyranitar: Darkrai is a mythical, access to it will be severely limited if the current system of distributing mythicals stays in place.

In extreme danger: all ice mons (Mamoswine), all fire mons (Heatran and Magmortar).

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