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Question about tier list

Please read prior for context:
https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/top-5-defenders-against-metagross

So, after reading the best defenders agaisnt metagross article, and seeing the line "Topping the charts as the greatest overall attacker in the game, along with resisting every single attack from the greatest gym defender Blissey, there is little reason to use Machamp over this meta mashing monster for you gym pounding needs." Does that mean metagross should be a tier 1 attacker now?

And if so, doesnt that mean the defender tier lists also are to be updated?

looking at the thing in tier lists for tier 1 attackers it says "Tier 1 Pokemon are supreme species whose high Attack, great moves, and advantageous typing make them consistently superior attackers. These are amazing generalists and some of the safest investments with regards to future Pokemon." which more than fits metagross, and if its just the legacy move that got it up there, that brings up psychic set mewtwo, its DPS as a generalist is somewhat lacking as numerous things in lower tiers out DPS it (dragonite, gengar, salamence) and psychic even being out DPS'd by the unanimously hated hyperbeam when have the same fast move in a neutral setting

Asked by MetagrossMaxis5 years 5 months ago
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Answers

I appreciate your dedication to Metagross!

The defender tier lists will be updated soon to account for the CP rebalance. The Meta article was an aside that Ryan took while working on that, and it is a very interesting take on the "meta." It's also relevant in a post and pre Meta CD (with it returning next weekend) world where that's just a common attacker right now in everyone's collections. Expect an update to the Def tier list soon!

As for the ATL, I personally was a fan of Meta at Tier 1... but that was when Kyogre and Tyranitar were also considered Tier 1. We've since broken up the category to include a 1.5 and I believe Meta correctly finds a home there.

There's other things to consider about Machamp. 1- The CP rebalance was very good to him. 2- He remains a huge tool for lots of Tier 4 Raids. Meta is the top counter for Togetic but that is already gone. Machamp is the top counter for Aggron, Absol, Houndoom, Ttar, Ursaring, (arguably) Walrein, and probably more I'm missing. Fighting has amazing type coverage.

Meta is now a better counter for the 2 Regis it's SE against but even if they do return, Machamp can still knock them out faster in Cloudy where Meta is almost never getting boosted.

I do think Metagross is very, very good, and you should definitely Maxis one or two. It's also an amazing generalist. For my money, it might be the best in Tier 1.5. The Tier 1 attackers, though, are just so incredibly useful that you can justify maxing entire teams of them, something I can't personally say about Meta.

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I evolved 7 MM Metagross, I've never used any of them on purpose (auto-select). Maxed Machamp, Dragonite, Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Tyranitar, SC Gengar...I use those on purpose all the time

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I know the rebalance was good to machamp (was great seing my 100% maxed out one break 3k CP), it also was to metagross, and I agree it was great in many tier 4's, and does have good coverage, but metagross earned its spot for gym crushing, not exactly raids (togetic was a good little boost for it, but it likely wont see use till we get a regi-rerun). Wule macham will out damage it in cloudy weather, the same can be said for multiple other pokemon in their respective weather boost, machamp seems to be given special allowances made for it. It doesnt seem fair that machamp gets ranked above others for seemingly common weather boost when the same can be applied to several other pokemon

I guess it just seemed that metagross didnt really seem to fit in with the other 1.5's, its a significant cut above the rest. It seemed odd that Psychic mewtwo, a pokemon with little usage is ranked above a pokemon most use for gyms and who's neutral DPS outpaces nearly all other nonlegendaries and even most legendaries.

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by TTT 5 years 5 months ago

I guess the question is whether that article should be taken at face value.

I don't agree with the statement:
"Topping the charts as the greatest overall attacker in the game"

He doesn't beat the neutral DPS of SB Mewtwo or Rayquaza. He doesn't get the type-coverage that fighting, ghost, rock, dark, or debatably dragon & ice (since many legendaries are dragon), have.

Steel is about as useful as Ground, Grass, Poison, or Electric - i.e. useful in one or two scenarios. This really holds Metagross back, as he's not attacking super-effectively into very much. Worse yet, he's being resisted by all the base-elemental types (which are extremely common).

I think Metagross belongs in tier 1.5, behind Gengar and Tyranitar (at least until Rampardos comes out). I think Dragonite belongs in tier 1.5 as well. I question if Moltres really belongs there, but it probably does. I agree entirely that Psychic Mewtwo does NOT belong in tier 1 or even 1.5 or maybe even 2. However SB Mewtwo definitely belongs in tier 1.

However accepting the page's definitions of tiers 1, 1.5, and 2, then Psychic Mewtwo DOES belong in tier 1.5 (is the best at what it does) as do Raikou and Groudon, and one of Venusaur or Roserade, and Weavile (at least until Mamoswine comes out). Meanwhile Zapdos, Latios, and BB Charizard then belong in tier 2.

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About dragon legendaries and thier weakness to ice, that only comes into play against Rayquaza, even with that weakness, the other dragons just out DPS ice so heavily (even with that double weakness rayquaza salamence and dragonite still out DPS's most ice types prior to get 4, but even mamoswine cant compete agaisnt rayquaza when it comes to dragon and ice having the same effectiveness. for comparison agaisnt giratina rayquaza leads mamoswine by roughly 4 DPS, without the double weakness ice isnt that good of a counter) Steel gets coverage agaisnt Rock, ice and fairy, 2 of which machamp held the best at prior. Since the CP nerf, chansey, snorlax and a fe other long standing defenders have left, which were what put machamp on the map.

Generalists dont always get super effective damage, thats the point of them being generalists, their high DPS makes them viable in situations even when they lack super effective damage, its situation isnt that different from SB mewtwo or Rayquaza, metagross doesnt need super effective damage to preform well, thats why its stated as the third best generalist behind ray and SB mewtwo, however machamp does need that super effective damage to preform well, gyms were what made it tier 1 and the largely have left it aside from blissey which metagross rivals it as because it doesnt fear any of blissey's moves in the same way machamp does. (metagross is also not resisted by grass) and while I do agree it is resisted by several common types, machamp, rayquaza and shadow ball mewtwo were all no different (gardevoir/togekiss for machamp and rayquaza, and the normal tanks on mewtwo).

Its just that a lot of the definitions for the tiers and the pokemon placed in them dont seem to match up. I fully agree SB mewtwo belongs in tier 1, most people I know actually treat shadow ball mewtwo as an entirely separate entity from mewtwo given the massive difference between the two.

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Steel just doesn't have many specialist uses. Machamp has far more and is many times over a cheaper investment. Specialists > Generalists, according to their own criteria.

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But metagross stil beats machamp by a very sizable margin at 2 of machamp's specialist match ups, rock and ice.

The tier 1 attackers are also explicitely stated as generalists, which machamp isnt, its neutral DPS and bulk isnt that high compared to several other pokemon ranked below it

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Because its typing is ridiculously advantageous in Gyms. Steel resistant Pokemon are seldomly seen in gyms since you will see Normal Types the most often, then Rock, Dragon, Fairy. The most common pokemon that resists steel in gyms are Vaporeon, Metagross and Milotic which are all counterable by Shadow Ball Mewtwo and Raikou.

Machamp in the other hand can and will be caught and destroyed by nearly ALL defenders, save for Rhydon and Tyranitar. No dodge with Machamp and you die in 2 Dazzling Gleams from Blissey and 1 Play Rough from Slaking. You are better off using neutral generalist counters against them because they more often than not have more bulk and resist their attacks.

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