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Mamoswine's CD

The more time's gone on, the more im thinking niantic wont be giving us an even better ground or ice move.

My discord spent a lot of time going back and forth about this (theres about 300 of us talking at this time) and went on for a good couple hours, and most of us settle on its moveset likely being ancient power.

We all settled on this, and seems to be a move others agree is plausible, mostly because its almost inpossible to give mamoswine a better ice set (they'd need to add icicle crash or something) and ground is a type niantic has seemingly decided to not give good moves for raids/gyms to, aside from drill run which no ground types were given. Ancient power is a move that while not linked closely to mamoswine in the same way the elemental hyperbeams are to the starters or meteor mash to metagross, it is needed to evolve it in the main series.

Now ancient power likely wouldnt serve much use on mamoswine, it might be good on gym defense for hitting charizard/Moltres, and maybe in PvP as a shieldbreaker.

One comment I have heard a few say is its CD move could be Avalanche, as it is unreleased, its moveset isnt set in stone. However thus far, every gen 4 pokemon's datamined movesets have been accurate, I feel this gives little reason to doubt that mamoswine's Ice set will always be available.

The other moves tossed around, Earthpower and icicle crash i feel are much less likely. Icicle crash mostly as Mamoswine is already so far ahead as an ice attacker, it has no threat, not even the legendary Kyurem without Glaciate beign added, icicle crash would do to it what Metor mash did to metagross, give it no competition for best in type, its ice type supremacy is already well established baring another move being added or a move rebalance. Earthpower is the other move, of any move mamoswine could recieve that isnt ancient power, i feel this one is the most likely, though still very unlikely. Ground has had a lot of chances to really shine raidwise, but most all has been passed up infavor of other types, mostly as ground's DPS (the main metric players use) is lagging substantially when at the same level of effectiveness. Heatran drew attention to ground only as it was supremely countered by it and the effectiveness buff also happened at roughly the same time, benefiting ground substantially more than other pokemon that hit heatran for SE damage because ground hits it for double super effective damage. If they give mamoswine earthpower, and this is niantic's first step in trying to make ground a better offensive type, the move would need to be very powerful. in a previous question someone posted, i used Machamp's DPS agaisnt dialga as comparision for how good this move would need to be for ground to register as a top counter (machamp being the best counter over all, it's thus the baseline to which all others are compaired to.) I came up with earthpower, at least for mamoswine, needing to be roughtly on par with, or perhaps a little worse than Dynamic punch to make an impact as a dialga counter (and as many of what ground hits for super effective damage, machamp, or something with comparable DPS, also hits for SE damage, i felt this was a good analogue). Now while this might now seem like too big, that would put mamosine far above Rhyperior, Garchomp and even Groudon as a ground attacker. In neutral weather, a hypothetical EP Mamoswine would need to output around 23.1 DPS to content with machamp, compared to the neutral weather 19.58 DPS of groudon (against DB/thunder), that is a very sizable gap. Niantic, if they ever do try to make ground a better offensive type, I do not think this is they way they'd go about it (though this would be similar to how ghost type moves are, all charge moves but shadow ball are not good). A lot like why I feel they nerfed blast burn before it came out is that Charizard was above moltres and entei, and it was ahead by a much smaller amount, being ahead period does detract from a reason to raid legendaries, as their whole thing (most of the time anyways, sorry suicune and zapdos) is they are the supreme attackers of their type, nonlegendaries are used most often by players who are serious about the game because the cost of legendaries (in rarecandy) is very demanding and may not have enough be be able to use those legendaries at the moment. Having something that is superior in preformance but also significantly less expensive would largely make all the other ground types not worth using for players who want to optimize teams. While EP being released and made very powerful for mamoswine would be absolutely amazing, its something I dont see niantic doing.

TL;DR, i dont recomend getting all into the earthpower/icicle crash hype train, a lot like how people were when gengar's raid day was announced and it was getting psychic (before niantic revealed it would be getting lick around 24 hours later), you could just be opening yourself to disapointment if what we get isnt what you wanted. While both of those moves would be absolutely amazing on mamoswine, Ancient power seems the more likely move.

Now none of this is 'hard fact confermed 100% fact going to happen' but it is what i feel it most likely to.

Asked by MetagrossMaxis5 years 2 months ago
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Would you like to add anything else? I feel you didn't quite ramble on enough.

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“Non legendary are used most often by players that are serious” .... you have said some of the stupidest things I have ever heard in my lifetime BUT this gem is by far the absolutely the dumbest thing ever....

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You didnt include the rest of that sentence, theres a little thing called context. Legendaries are the best at what they do, but at times the price of them may be a bit too steep, or arent affordable by players, ie not having enough rarecandy. The rest of that statement being "nonlegendaries are used most often by players who are serious about the game because the cost of legendaries (in rarecandy) is very demanding and may not have enough to be able to use those legendaries at the moment."

You really seem to enjoy cherry picking moments that make me look dumb, but neglect the rest.

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He’s got a point. You need to understand the logic of your implications:

The set of players are those that are serious and not serious.

Non legends are used most often by players who are serious about the game > implies the statement non legends are mostly used by players who are not serious about the game cannot be true.

Now end of the logic section and see reality:
The reason why non legends are used is because people are not serious about the game in relative terms. The cost has nothing to do with whether they are serious are not. A Ferrari is a better car than a Prius. Does the Prius owner make it sound more serious?

Have a think about your arguments and craft them with sound reasoning, it helps not only here but in real life too

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The comparison between this game and cars is a bit different, there are few times where the extra speed of the Ferrari is useful (especially when on roads with speedlimits) compared to a prius, as speed limits are a thing, while in raids there is no damage per second limit, but I do see what you mean.

What I was attempting to get across is players who are serious about the game use nonlegendaries when they do not have the ability to use their legendaries (ie are unable to power them up because of lack of rarecandy/species specific candy) not imply that not people who arent serious about the game (relatively) use legendaries. That was a misspeak on my part.

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You forgot earthquake, it's not "datamined set" and it's the best ground type move now. Not good in raids/PvE but quite a move in PvP, niantic could just go the easy way

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Drill Run is the best ground move atm (excluding Earth Power, since no stats on it).
The order is;
Drill Run >> Mud Bomb > Bulldoze = Earthquake
*Bulldoze has similar damage, ever so slightly low but has two bar.
*Earthquake is bad, really bad. Only reason is thrives is the movesets. Revelant ground Pokemons doesn't have anything other than earthquake on them

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I was talking about mamoswine possible learnset, but i forgot mud bomb, my fault. Drill run is great but impossible to learn by mamo, and i feel bulldoze is very weak (the only advantage is that is a 2 bar move, so in some cases can outperform earthquake if you are doing a raid, but in pvp is underhelming) Mud bomb can be learned by swinub and its spammable, so you're right, but anyways, using the best ice mon as a ground attacker doesn't seem a clever choice. My point was niantic does not need to introduce a new move, can just give mamo earthquake (or mud bomb) and at least give us something that is not complete crap like ancient power

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Bulldoze is undoubtedly better than EQ in PvE, there's an advantage in pure cycle DPS and having two bars is highly valuable in most cases.

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Earthquake wouldn't help it, neither would mud bomb, ground type moves, aside from drill run are generally bad, its why even with groudon's supreme stats, ground wasnt first choice against regirock/steel, drill run or a new ground move (or a rebalance of current moves) is really all that can help ground types in raids.

PvP is a different story, a lot of move in PvE preform different than the same move in PvP. The good moves in both cases are different, sans a few cases. Mud bomb would be good for mamoswine in PvP, but woundn't change anything raid wise. it would still be overshadowed by groudon and Garchomp, and wouldn't come close to machamp at countering steel types (mudbomb being the better move than EQ according to the DPS/TDO spreadhsheet for mamoswine, but still coming up short in DPS)

Even though ancient power wouldn't be too good of a move for it, i'd probably rather it (mostly as it would mean Avalanche isnt legacy locked) but also because its what's needed to evolve it main series wise. The move would do next to nothing for mamoswine in the raid/gym meta, and in PvP avalanche hits 20+ more damage (before STAB) for the same energy cost.

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Even Drill Run is mediocre compared to "good" charge moves like Wild Charge, Dynamic Punch, Avalanche and Outrage.

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Am I the only one who feels all this speculation regarding Mamoswine is fairly pointless? At worst it gets a useless exclusive move and is still an amazing pokemon you'll probably want to have 6 of.

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Don't think about it too much, I wouldn't mind a good ground/ice type move.

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by aSp 5 years 2 months ago

None of the previous data mined Gen4 arrived with a CD.

It could still be AV, or any other data mined set...you are just trying to justify discounting the possibility.

EDIT Sure, there is every possibility I am wrong too, but the reasoning to disregard the possibility of the moves already 'assigned' being the CD move isn't strong...but I am being pedantic

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It's just a sin what they've done to Ground types :/ I always hated that Kyogre was pretty much objectively better than Groudon, so I like that Groudon pulls ahead in PvP.

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