Well, i see now only pure water (wg/hp) or pure ice movesets with frost breath (plus blizzard or ice beam) are rated A. And i fully agree, i dont see a point how any mixed moveset (water/ice or ice/water) could be rated A. And i also think ice shard is awesome at attacking now, since its not as slow as before, and it does charge energy very faster. Both ice shard + blizzard or ice beam should also be rated as A.
Another question is that before Ice Shard/Blizzard was rated as A at defending, now its B and i wonder why, since blizzard was buffed and comes out a lot faster than before.
I think it's silly how people just follow the GamePress ranks without doing much analysis on their own. Sure, the ranks are a decent enough starting point, but there's so much more information out there, and people base their whole strategy off of one website's ranks ... ranks that have plenty of flaws and assumptions built in.
The Gyarados rankings in particular are just awful.
Well, since gamepress is one of the very few sites that does make a whole research before ranking movesets (not just considering damage output as most sites/apps does) its very nice to discuss and make the site more and more rich. Its not about being dumb and following what the site says, its about discussing and think about it as well.
That's true, and some people definitely partake in that healthy discussion and back-and-forth; however, lately I've been shying away from the community because it seems more and more heavily populated by people who just blindly follow the lists and don't really consider much else.
There are plenty of other resources / simulations / analyses out there that consider a whole lot more than just simply raw DPS. Sites like Pogomoves are great for the raw numbers, and then there's PokeBattler for the detailed sims (on which GamePress' rankings rely heavily). Then there is also Goptimiz.fr/en which is an incredible resource, and which boasts probably the most complete simulations / calculations for comparing different movesets.
One area in particular I think GP relies too heavily on is the difficulty of dodging particular charge moves. At this stage in the game, I am not going to tailor my pokemon stardust investment based on how casual players play the game, because quite frankly I don't care whether a mediocre player can dodge Hydro Pump / Stone Edge / Psychic, etc. The fact is any good player worth his or her salt is dodging everything, and very effectively at least 90-95% of the time regardless of moveset. So, I would tend to give more credence to the "raw" numbers for this reason.
Take Gyarados for example ... the only "A" rated defense moveset is DT/Hydro Pump when it's a distant third behind DT/OR and DT/Crunch in terms of damage output. Furthermore, to give movesets like DB/Hydro and Bite/Hydro the same grade as DT/OR and DT/Crunch is just laughable, as their damage output lags behind IMMENSELY. The GP editors are basically saying, "well, Hydro Pump is harder to dodge for average players, so this is the best moveset," and that's just crazy in my opinion.
And ranking DT/OR ahead of the Hydro Pump movesets for attacking? Don't even get me started on the stupidity of that analysis. It's just wrong-headed in every respect: damage output, dodging efficiency, type effectiveness.
I like to look at the rankings from time to time, but some of the lists are just so far from helpful I feel like it's a detriment to the community. When people who visit this website think that DT/OR is the best attack moveset for Gyarados, something is very, very wrong.
Tl;DR This time (unusually I'd say) pitmound is not right on defence, GamePress is; proven number wise from pokebattler, does not matter HP is harder to dodge. On attack depends on viewpoint.
I don't have a DT/OR so I can only ask questions:
ATTACK view:
1. Is a lvl 30 Gya with DT/OR able to kill 2 3.3k Dragonites?
Pokebattlers says Yes for Dodge all Pro.
2. Better then lvl 30 Lapras? No way
3. Faster than Lapras. A lot faster, like 25% faster on pokebattler
4. More availability than double ice move Lapras?
After current event I would say yes (Although I have a double ice lapras and no DT/OT Gya :), but I hatched a lot of eggs 1000+ )
So, my DT/HP will not get attack usage, not on big gyms anyway, will be a defender if I consider practicability.
If I would have a DT/OR one he might get some Dragonite activities on gyms with 5+ Dragonites.
That is maybe why DT/OR has the first A, getting more usage, while DT/HP is outclassed by HP Vap on relevant matchups (I think for Blissey there are better mons than Vap or Gya).
DEFENCE view:
1. Will DT/OR have time to cast 2 OR? - No
2. Will DT/C have time to cast 2 C? - No
3. Will DT/HP have time to cast one HP? - Yes
I think the only yes is 3rd one, in that case HP is better wince the pother ones will not have a complete cycle.
http://pokebattler.com/fights/attackers/JOLTEON/quickMoves/THUNDER_SHOCK_FAST/cinMoves/THUNDERBOLT/levels/30/ivs/FFF/defenders/GYARADOS/quickMoves/DRAGON_TAIL_FAST/cinMoves/OUTRAGE/levels/35.5/ivs/FFF/strategies/DODGE_ALL/DEFENSE
See for yourself, HP one gives more damage than the other vs. best usual Gya counter, Jolt with TB, lvl 30, 100 IV.
So I would be more careful accusing GP of sloppiness.
BTW, I always appreciate your insights, that is why I made all this tests on myself. This time GP is right from my point of view, at least on Defence. On attack, I don't care, as I said I use Vap and Lapras, but I can see the point for DT/OT as first A.
And ranking DT/OR ahead of the Hydro Pump movesets for attacking? Don't even get me started on the stupidity of that analysis. It's just wrong-headed in every respect: damage output, dodging efficiency, type effectiveness.
I don't understand why you keep insisting in posts that the moves rated A for the various Pokemon are listed in rank order. GamePress has made no such declaration. In fact, contrary to this, their moveset gradings explanation clearly says all A-rated moves are considered a tie. Yet you ignore this and criticize them for something they are not doing, thus making a fallacious strawman argument. I think you are a brilliant analyzer of the game and know it extremely well, but you are being unfair to GamePress on this one issue. I hope to be able to continue to read your insights, but I think you should either provide a legitimate source/link for your belief that the movesets are listed in rank order, or discontinue stating this as a fact.
I agree with this. For the most part, I have found gamepress to most accurately represent my experience, especially on the defensive side of things. At the same time, every person is different and has their own styles. Some people prefer quicker moves, others prefer slower, hard hitting moves like confusion and volt switch. Some people prefer hydro pump, others aqua tail. I generally agree, but some things I flat out disagree with. Gyarados is a good example of this. They still have twister has a horrible move on defense, but it is the only move I can never seem to dodge. Many people have trouble with crunch, but I don't. I get hit by twister every time and with the buff, it hits my Jolteons pretty hard. I don't always agree with gamepress, but I respect the work they put in, as opposed to just creating rankings by plugging numbers into a spreadsheet.
Pitmound,
I agree that it is generally good practice for players to do their own in-game observation, rather than religiously following any one particular source. Personally, I like GP very much and find it reliable.
Regarding Gyarados, and moveset grading in general, it is my understanding that GP does not attempt to make a distinction between movesets under the same grade. The first "A" grade moveset isn't considered to be better than the second "A" grade moveset. The fact that DT+O is presented above DT+HP doesn't mean much. There was a thread about this in the past, see link below.
https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/q-a/multiple-moveset-rankings-are-they-order
I think only FB/B and FB/IB should be rated A because WG/HP can be used by other Pokémon, notably Vaporeon, more elitely than Lapras due to Lapras being an ice Pokémon.
GamePress bases all their moveset ratings for a particular Pokemon by comparing how they perform in comparison to one another when used by that mon, without regard to how the same or similar moveset is used by another mon.
What 333-blue says is that ice combo gets used as the best ice combo in game; while water combo is outclassed by Vape similar combo.
So, if the ratings are not just numbers, but also meta, then water combo is under ice one.
Otherwise just follow the top from spreadsheets.
Is a good idea to stardust an ice combi, while is very wuestionable to stardust a water combo. But if you see A for both, you might make the wrong decision :)
I look at the ratings and actually put them in the names of my Pokemon, but I don't follow them blindly, because people have such different styles. For example, for a while they were saying that WG/AT and WG/HP were both A level moves for Vapes, but I had way more success with WG/HP and quit using my WG/AT for attacks, even though it had a higher CP and a much higher IV percentage. Interestingly, I notice WG/AT was recently downgraded to B for attack, which just goes to show the ratings are a starting place, but you have to make your own decisions based on your area's gym population and your own style.
One of the problems with Gamepress' ratings has always been not considering type advantages of best machups. Single type movesets should get a small push up in attack ratings when compared with a really close mixed type moveset.
Against a normal pokemon with no weakness or resistance, Water Gun/Blizzard may do slightly more damage than Frost/Breath Blizzard... but is anyone going to ever want to power up a Lapras for that matchup?
There is one overlap in weaknesses for ice and water against ground pokemon, but more often a single type moveset will be better.
