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Findings from Gen IV Movesets

(Source: https://www.scribd.com/document/390980312/gen-4-stats)
[From The Silph Road Reddit Megathread)

Here are some noteworthy things I got from that:

- Torterra has a decent Grass set but no Ground set, Razor Lead/Solarbeam
- Infernape has a Fire and Fighting set but both are pretty poor Charged Moves
- Empoleon was lucky enough to get a good Water set and decent Steel set
- Staraptor has a base attack of 234 and has Wing Attack/Brave Bird, meaning we have a decent nonlegendary dedicated Flying attacker now (though BB is a poor Charged Move)
- Luxray has 232 base attack and the Spark/Wild Charge Electric set, meaning it will (i think?) outclass Jolteon
- Roserade got a Poison and Grass set! Yippie! Poison Jab/Sludge Bomb is a good set, though Razor Leaf/Solar Beam is only a decent set
- Rampardos has Smack Down and Rock Slide (A far better Rock Charged Move than the widely-seen Stone Edge), so this thing is gonna have monster DPS
- Floatzel has a base attack of 221 and Water Gun/Hydro Pump (better than Waterfall/Hydro Pump), meaning it is a decent Water Attacker if one doesn't have Kyogre/Gyarados)
- Cherrim/Shellos/Burmy have different forms (Not the right place for this but i didn't know until reading this)
- Though Honchkrow did manage to get both a Dark and Flying set with good Quick Moves, its Charged Moves (Dark Pulse and Brave Bird) are poor. Aww....
- Garchomp, I'll list all moves because it's a monster and everyone's dying to know. Dragon Tail/Mud Shot and Outrage/Fire Blast/Earthquake. Nothing new here but no disappointment: A good Dragon set, Ground set, and counter coverage set like many Pokemon get
- Lucario: Pretty disappointing but we all saw it coming. Good stats and sets for both types but poor options: Bullet Punch/Flash Cannon for steel, Counter/Close Combat for Fighting.
- Hippowdown: May've been a decent all-around Ground type but it didn't even get a Ground quick move.
- Toxicroak: A fan-favorite for Poison lovers, stats aren't the best but man did it get good moves! Poison Jab/Sludge Bomb for Poison and Counter/Dynamic Punch for Fighting
- Weavile: Got a decent set for both types: Ice Shard/Avalanche for Ice and Feint Attack/Foul Play for Dark. Both have decent Quick Moves and great Charged Moves, and at 243 base Attack over Jynx's 223 and a little bit more bulk we now have a quite dangerous Ice Attacker!
- Magnezone: No Steel quick move (yet...as Mirror Shot was added so hopefully we get it!) but thank god it got Wild Charge! Quick Moves are Spark and Charged Beam - another good Electric attacker for the time being
- Rhyperior: Luckily this guy both kept his old Ground moves and took on some new Rock moves! Smack Down/Stone Edge for Rock and Mud Slap/Earthquake for Ground! This guy is gonna be a serious threat!
- Tangrowth has Vine Whip/Solar Beam for a good bulky Grass mon, though I was hoping for Power Whip...
- Electivire got Thunder Shock/Wild Charge and has a monstrous 249 base attack! It's now a glassier but higher DPS alternative to Raikou and vies with it for Electric-type king!
- Magmortar is promising with a 249 base attack and decent moves. Fire Spin/Fire Punch isn't terrible but still outclassed by Overheat. The 3-bar Fire Punch and slow Quick Move also makes it an excellent Fire-type defender!
- Togekiss did not get the Fairy Quick move we've been hoping for. However, it did get a Hidden Power/Dazzling Gleam set. If you don't know, Hidden Power is the 2nd deadliest Quick Move on gym defense and Dazzling Gleam is up there too, so this will be a dangerous contender for Gym Defense and a great anti-Machamp wall. Togekiss received Air Slash/Aerial Ace, making it a decent Flying attacker, though the lack of Sky Attack is disappointing...
- Yanmega received a Flying and Bug set but both are only decent sets
- Leafeon received fantastic Grass Charged Moves (all of which are great options!) and a great Gym defensive set to keep opponents guessing on Charged Move timings. This, however, means its offensive capabilities are held back by lack of Vine Whip
- Glaceon received both Frost Breath and Ice Shard, meaning it will be a viable Ice-type defender with its superior bulk to the glassy Weavile. It also received Avalanche, a fantastic Ice Charged Move. Its slightly-superior offensive Quick Move to Weavile (as well as slightly better bulk) allows it to content with Weavile for the Ice-type throne! It also has a good 2-bar and 1-bar Ice-type Charged Move to keep opponents guessing in Gym Battles
- Gliscor: Got a dedicated, decent Flying set. Earthquake is a poor Charged Move but Fury Cutter charges energy quickly though without STAB. Too bad Bug is not a good option against almost all targets weak to Ground...It has very poor gym defense options unfortunately
- Mamoswine has excellent Ice-type moves and poor Ground-type moves. It has a monstrous base attack of 247 and high bulk to bolster it. It is the most serious contender for the Ice-type throne currently, with the highest attack and bulk unseen in the other options, though the ability for alternatives to use other Ice Quick Moves may help them to keep pace
- Porygon-Z: My personal favorite Pokemon and with a ridiculous base attack of 264. Unfortunately it's held back by bad Quick Moves and 1-bar Charged Moves, but it can carry some serious neutral DPS if you manage to get a Normal-type Hidden Power because it can also run Hyper Beam
- Gallade: This one needs all its moves posted: Low Kick/Confusion, Psychic/Close Combat/Leaf Blade. Decent options for both types but none are particularly good. Leaf Blade is a fantastic Charged Move though without STAB. At the very least, Confusion/Leaf Blade is a promising defensive set though Gallade has a somewhat low bulk (which was boosted by the rebalance, however)
- Dusknoir: Good Quick Moves that are both Ghost type, but it got terrible Charged Move options. Ominous Wind is its only STAB option and is a terrible move when compared to Shadow Ball...
- Froslass: A useless but popular Pokemon. Great Ghost set (Hex/Shadow Ball) and great Ice set (Powder Snow/Avalanche) so it really couldn't ask for more
- Rotom: Surprisingly decent stats, only notable set is Thunder Shock/Thunderbolt which is a great Electric set only falling short of Wild Charge (Note: No Rotom form currently has a STAB set outside of Electric as only its Charged Moves seem to change)
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Legendaries
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- Uxie/Azelf/Mesprit: Confusion and Extrasensory are both good Quick Moves, and it got Futuresight to boot for a great Psychic STAB set
- Dialga: Dragon Breah/Draco Meteor isn't the best Dragon set but its STAB and good for dodging. Metal Claw is the best Steel Quick Move but Iron Head is a terrible Charged Move, but again it's still Steel. The fact that Dialga got 2 STAB sets and great stats/resistances means that it is going to make waves in the meta
- Palkia: No Water Quick Moves so Kyogre remains king. With the option to run Dragon Tail instead of Dragon Breath along with its Draco Meteor, it proves to be a more serious threat to Rayquaza with higher Bulk and no Ice Weakness/Double Water resistance. This makes it higher DPS than Dialga but without a non-Dragon use
- Heatran: Only notable set is its double-Fire STAB set Fire Spin/Fire Blast. Without Overheat, Moltres remains Fire-type king! Heatran does contest Entei for a bulky Fire-type option with better resistances, however.
- Regigigas: Absolutely terrible movepool. Its best set (I believe) is Rock Smash/Avalanche in a vacuum, but no STAB or even synergized movesets.
- Giratina: Very interesting, has the WORST Ghost Charged Move, Shadow Sneak, but the best Ghost Quick Move, Shadow Claw. Also has a fantastic Dragon set with Dragon Breath/Dragon Claw, a very dodge-friendly STAB set. Overall this is a "Bulky Ghost/Dragon" more than a DPS one but still a great option.
- Cresselia: Confusion/Psycho Cut are great Psychic options to compliment its Futuresight Charged Move. Got a great Psychic STAB set but is a bulky, low attack mon
- Manaphy: Got a good water set with Bubble/Waterfall and Bubblebeam
- Darkrai: No Ghost Quick Moves but great Dark-type Quick Moves, Snarl/Feint Attack. Dark Pulse is disappointing but it did also receive Shadow Ball, meaning against Psychic targets the best set is a mixed Snarl/Shadow Ball Dark/Ghost set! Goodbye, Gengar!
- Shaymin: Grass Knot is a great Charged Move with STAB, but without a Grass Quick Move you're playing the Hidden Power lottery again.
- Arceus: No new moves on the different forms yet, but here's what it has: Iron Tail/Shadow Claw and Future Sight/Outrage/Hyper Beam. Great neutral potential with Shadow Claw/Hyper Beam

I only listed noteworthy movesets and implications.

Asked by WaterYouWading45 years 5 months ago
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Answers

As mad as I am about how Giratina got handled I don't think we can say for 100% certain the legendary moves are final. None of the new moves found in the game master have been given to anything new or old and Deoxys had move changes just before release, so there's still some hope for anything that got shafted. Plus, Blaziken had a move replacement the day after it came out.

I could just be delusional in thinking the moves are only placeholders too so we'll see.

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I don't think they are placeholders but I do think they are subject to change. The 18 new gen 4 moves aren't in yet and though a lot of them are too specific to change most of these it does hold potential for some changes. Some of the more applicable moves include Earth Power, Muddy Water, Superpower, and Drain Punch

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Maybe placeholder isn't the right word, but it's the same point. A move added just so there's something for it in the game master that can be changed later.

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by TyFox 5 years 5 months ago

Thanks for taking the time to break this down!

I'm somewhat underwhelmed overall, especially regarding the legendaries. It seems that interesting typing and monstrous stats are neutralized by piss-poor movesets across the board. To me, this suggests that the 3-hour exclusive-move raid window that was used over the summer with the Gen I birds will be put to further use with this generation. I'm not thrilled about that, because it means that the official original releases of all of these Pokemon are essentially for gathering candy and little else, since they aren't in themselves useful and can't be eventually made useful due to TMs not working for exclusive moves.

Togekiss is a bit of a disappointment as well. It will be a deterrent on gym defense with Air Slash/Dazzling Gleam, both of which hit Machamp for SE damage, but only 1/15 of a chance to get a dedicated Fairy attacker/defender is frustrating.

All in all, it seems the big winners who will be the major meta contenders from this list are: Mamoswine, Weavile (Dark), Leafeon (budget option), Rampardos/Rhyperior, and Electivire (budget option). Togekiss will be a viable defender. None of the legendaries, except maybe Darkrai, look very interesting to me from a movepool perspective.

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You're welcome! Unfortunately there is no Hidden Power (Fairy) so that's not happening. The legendaries this time around did get somewhat bad moves but they're luckily still really strong in stats and I'm glad that they even got some STAB moves at all (with the exception of Palkia-water). This isn't a terrible thing though, because this means than Gen 4 isn't going to completely bulldoze past Pokemon

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I don't fundamentally think it's a bad thing for Legendary Pokemon to be reined in by bad movesets so that other Pokemon with better movesets and worse stats have a place in the meta. I really dislike 1-bar charge moves, and those seem to be in wide abundance here (Draco Meteor isn't the worst of the lot, but it's still not great). When there's already a superior Dragon option in Rayquaza and a competent option in Outrage Dragonite, it's hard for me to see myself forking over Rare Candy for any of the Dragon trio. Heatran is also a disappointment.

Without going into a long diatribe about how stale and boring the battling system in Pokemon Go is, I'll just say that in the absence of some innovation in battle mechanics (or a complete overhaul), the only thing to mix the game up is to incorporate new players in the roster. These new additions don't do it for me.

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Don't forget about the incoming Garchomp who rivals the legendary newcomers.

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In spite of lackluster moves, Dialga and Palkia's stats and typing can make them ideal depending on the specific matchup. Dialga's steel typing completely nullifies its dragon weaknesses, something no other dragon type can say. I can see Palkia in particular being incredibly viable against Gen 5's Reshiram.

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That's fine. Perhaps it's just personal distaste for using 1-bar charge moves that biases me further against them even more than the math does. My personal experience with DM has been very lackluster.

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Fair point, single bar plus lengthy cast time make it a risky move. That said it's immensely satisfying when you're actually able to get a second DM fired off.

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IMO, Draco Meteor makes Palkia suboptimal for anything other than Dragon raids. It's an awful gym move.

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by mahzza 5 years 5 months ago

Move discussions are among my favorite in the game, so here are my thoughts on some of your thoughts!

- Rampardos is going to have epic-level DPS with Smack Down/Rock Slide. I hope the tankiness improvements let it stick around in tougher fights. One to watch for sure.

- Rhyperior was given uninspired moves. Another Smack Down/Stone Edge clone? And Earthquake? Again? No more Earthquake! Enough, Niantic. It's basically Rhydon with Smack Down (albeit with better stats) that won't be better than Tyranitar in DPS or TDO. Pass unless it gets a Community Day move...

- Tangrowth was shafted by not getting Power Whip or Grass Knot. Solar Beam makes it useless for gym play, and it has only TWO total Grass moves as a mono-Grass Pokemon. Disappointing.

- Magnezone and Electivire are terrific additions to the Electric arsenal.

- Magmortar: I'm actually pretty pleased it got Fire Punch, which isn't the best Fire move, but IS the best three-bar Fire move. Good for experiential diversity. I'm powering this one up.

- Garchomp: Another powerful attacker stuck with Earthquake, though there weren't many options. Niantic needs to fix Ground charged moves in general. At least it got Mud Shot instead of Mud-Slap and will resist Grass and Water--unlike Groudon.

- Togekiss: Like many, I'm disappointed with the lack of a Fairy quick move...AGAIN. Air Slash and Hidden Power are both terrible for gym attacking if you like to dodge (I do). Will be a good defender, however.

- Leafeon and Glaceon: Were well treated.

- Mamoswine: Will be a lot of fun. Powder Snow will allow it to spam Avalanche. And it's nice to be able to get away from Frost Breath.

- Porygon-Z: Doesn't Porygon2 have the EXACT SAME moves? C'mon, Niantic. Try harder. A waste.

- Dialga: No, Iron Head isn't the best charged move in the PoGo universe, but it IS actually the best Steel move Dialga could have gotten of those available. Metal Claw/Iron Head will be a fun, fast, and dodge-friendly set, and Dialga is the only Pokemon of note to get both of them. I'm happy with this.

- Palkia and Heatran: Snooze-fest. Next.

- Giratina: Yes, Shadow Sneak is terrible. Ominous Wind would have been better, and that's really saying something. However, the ONLY good Ghost charged move in the game is Shadow Ball. Niantic needs to revisit all of them when they get around to reimagining Ground. Which should be never.

- Darkrai: Will be a lot of fun.

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Agree with most of these - Ground in PoGo really needs reworking as the only other Ground moves are Dig, Bulldoze, Drill Run, and Mud Bomb, and only Mud Bomb of all of these is even slightly viable. Porygon-Z was a huge upset and I think Tangrowth could have done better (what better Pokemon to give Power Whip to?). I was pleased with how they handled Heatran, still giving it STAB but not the best option overall. Dialga and Palkia I think were actually done well - Dragon Tail and Outrage are the only things I ever see so the variety is nice. Dragonbreath can dodge better but is weaker, and Draco Meteor is the only 1-bar Dragon Move and objectively a bit worse, but on top of these mons with good bulk and fantastic resistances I think they did a great job. Palkia has the Dragon Tail option over Dialga at the cost of a Water-set, which would have absolutely decimated Kyogre.

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Yeah, I agree with almost 100% of this. We have some big winners and some big disappointments. I guess I'll just wait to evolve the disappointments until Community Days come around.

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Because we aren't yet seeing the 18 new moves - yet these current move choices at least took some thought - I assume that most of them are final but some are not. The only ones I see potentially replacing some of these are Earth Power, Muddy Water, Drain Punch, and Superpower (And Mirror Shot for Magnezone for sure)

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I think Yanmega's Bug Bite/Bug Buzz is arguably the top bug moveset in the game. Yes, bug moves in general aren't great, but Bug Buzz packs a bigger punch than x-scizzor and is way better than Megahorn. Only real niche against grass-types (double resistance will make a nice tank at the end of any tier 3 grass solos), but it's a nice improvement over what we have now.

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Had to re-look at X-Scissor and Bug Buzz to confirm what ya said. You're right - looks like it good a great moveset as far as Bugs go

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The fact on how they treat these pokemon should ring red alarms that Niantic just randomizes the moves without much thought and Nintendo should revoke all developer rights from them already.

Capital Punishment to nearly all new pokemon sounds this up.

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by Kazlu 5 years 5 months ago

Thanks for the info and great analysis!

I personally like that we have great new contenders, but not overkill meta changing monsters. Although some pokemon could have seen better relevance.

Small mistake though: "- Glaceon [...] has a good 2-bar and 1-bar Ice-type Charged Move to keep opponents guessing in Gym Battles" -> 2-bar and 3-bar ;)

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