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CD special moves becoming part of the Meta

Given the importance of special CD moves, particularly with Metagross, it seems probable that they will introduce a mechanism for these moves to come back on a regular basis. We had the first taste of this with the Community Weekend revisiting all of them.

Metagross's case is special, though. It's the only good Steel attacker, and if one missed both opportunities to get Meteor Mash, one is definitely at a disadvantage in PvP, on many raids, and in attacking gyms. For many of the other CDs, there were other options - Blastoise -> Gyarados or Kyogre, Charizard -> Moltres, etc., or Dragonite, where the special move is comparable (or a little worse) than the normal optimal move. Meteor Mash separates itself from the rest by virtue of the fact that it is an objectively excellent move on its own, and is of a typing where all the other moves are poor at best (Magnet Bomb isn't terrible, the rest are).

I don't think that Niantic can afford to tell a player without a Meteor Mash Metagross that they missed the window and will have to do without. Either something else will step up and be a significant Steel attacker (not Dialga, Iron Head is almost as bad as Flash Cannon, and not Magnezone, because Flash Cannon is just as bad as Flash Cannon), or they will make MM Metagross available periodically.

How often? I have no certain knowledge, but I can't see MM not being available again, probably in the next six months. Further, I could see the sort of CW (Community Weekend) thing happening regularly, maybe every 4 months or so, but with a smaller set of repeated pokemon. Maybe just G2 and G3 starters, or Beldum, Mareep, Eevee, and a few others. My gut feeling is that one pokemon per CD is fine some of the time, but 11-12 was too many. 4-6 could be ideal. We'll see.

Comments?

Asked by aeronaut635 years 4 months ago

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Answers

Steel itself is pretty niche. Day 1 player here and I've never been put in a spot where I've felt I *needed* a steel attacker. MM Metagross is different because MM is an absurd move backed up by absurd stats. Missing MM Metagross isn't about missing out on the best steel attacker at the moment, it's about missing out on the overall best neutral damage generalist.

As far as steel types go, there is Jirachi to be released. While gimped by a lack of a steel fast move, Doom Desire in its current state previously set the bar for stupidly powerful. Jirachi being a base 100 mythical means it'll likely be a special research, allowing everybody a shot at getting one. Failing that, Dialga - even with Iron Head - is the 2nd best steel attacker overall and we'll probably have a month to raid it.

tl;dr: For steel attackers there are other options on the horizon that won't be *as good* but likely good enough. For uber tanky generalists, if you missed out you'd better hope someone has an extra they'll trade you.

There was duoing Togetic raids for a reason to need steel attackers, for a while. Too bad Niantic didn't want us spending raid passes on them.

I actually forgot about Togetic raids. If only I had seen more of them they might have made a bigger impact...

Either way that's *one* specific instance which by definition is a niche need.

Indeed. For me it was very relevant for that short time, the ability to duo meant that I did 5 of those raids instead of 1. Maybe we'll get another target at some point.

I'm just impressed you saw 5 Togetic raids.

My reply to both TheBiggestLeaf and Metagross Maxis is this: Steel is a 'niche' type because there weren't many good attackers using it, even more so than Bug or Poison. Then MM Metagross comes along, and the whole landscape is changed.

Note that if MM Metagross had the same attacks and stats, but was type Normal, it would be good, but not quite as good. Those resistances are very useful in PvP and somewhat useful in Gyms.

I just wish there was a Bug that was meta-relevant. Would be fun to go after psychics and plants with a strong bug attacker.

Steel as an attacking type is still niche.

What makes MM Metagross busted is that steel is an amazing defensive type and Metagross has massive stats to go along with it. Say Pinsir had a bug equivalent of MM, it wouldn't have nearly the same impact because it lacks the resistances and natural bulk Metagross has. It would be good, but not MM Metagross good.

Yes, of course. Steel hits SE into Ice, Rock, and Fairy, and Steel is resistant to all three of those attacks, so it's pretty effective against them. There are other counters, of course, but having an SE attacker with good stats and resistance makes it a logical choice, and the 'niche' label will go away once it becomes popular.

One very good thing about Metagross's ascendence to power is that now the auto select leaves my Aggrons on the bench and puts in MM Metagross. That's a relief.

Funnily enough in the main series two of those types (rock and ice) are the inverse of steel in a sense - they're much better offensive types than they are defensive types. We'll see how much main series mentality carries over to PvP but usually moves of those types are seen from attackers that aren't those type. For example, if you look at the useage tiers of Smogon the only ice type in OU (overused) is Kyurem-Black, a dragon/ice legendary with 170 attack (translates to ~341 in Go before the nerf) and Tyranitar is the only rock type in the main OU list. There are others of those types defined as having strategies for that tier but usually do better in lower ones.

In main series competitive Fairy type is much more prominent to carry defensively but currently has little presence in Go since most of the Fairy heavy hitters aren't released yet. I'm not denying Metagross isn't a power house but steel specialists have been in very low demand outside of Togetic raids as housunkannatin pointed out. Metagross's use doesn't come from it being a specialist, rather as the bulkiest generalist while carrying respectable general DPS. It's undeniably slower compared to specialists against types steel isn't SE against.

It ain’t a relief for the other people carrying you in those raids

It is. More damage rewards for us. Carrying squatters is the best part about being level 40 second only to short-manning or soloing.

The thing is, it isnt really 'Steel' thats a relevant offensive type, metagross is somewhat of a special case. Metagross in particular has the highest DPS of all steel types some of the highest nonlegendary DPS, surpassing that of even SC gengar being and is only rurpassed by unreleased, massive glass cannon Rampardos. Being debatable the best generalist in the game. its DPS trails things like Rayquaza and SB mewtwo, but those pokemon arent nearly as bulky or poses the defensive typing metagross does to last long against gym defenders and raid bosses (having about 90% tyranitar's DPS agaisnt cresselia), or in the case of shadow ball mewtwo doesnt get hard resisted by the normal tanks.

In short, steel itself isnt relevant, it's just metagross because of its massive neutral damage and high bulk. Not that dissimilar from shadow ball mewtwo and rayquaza when theres not dragon or ghost/psychic raids.

My hope is that they do something like December's CW on a fairly regular basis (maybe 2x per year instead of 1, because that was a little crazy with 11 increased spawns, but I'm sure even then everyone had their priority list). What I think would work fairly well is if they had increased spawns for only the species featured in recent community days (since the last community weekend), but allow all prior CD moves to be available via evolution again.

I'd actually be okay with this. Not necessarily for the spawn reason since I didn't mind the mix of all 11 but for a chance at a "mop up" event at a time of year that's much more probable to have decent weather.

And it's a great concession to anyone who is busy during the original CD, not shutting them out from the fun of getting an attack that is time limited for acquisition.

Yes, I could easily see something like this working, possibly with some of the prior CD moves being available (maybe with a theme of some sort).

I really want and need them to be available soon. I prepared my CD Pokemon's but got really tired last day because I was working. I asked my wife to wake me up next morning so I could use last few hours of the community weekend to evolve my CD mons. Sadly she forgot to wake me up and I m left with Lot's of lucky and shiny CD Pokemon's... I felt so bad and still kind of sad about it. Like I said I need another chance really bad.

I vote for simple, maybe even oversimple answer. CD TM.
Very rare item, maybe dropable once in a month or sth like that, allowing tm'ing move to a CD one.

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