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Blissey might not even be good for PvP

Its somewhat interesting to look at blissey for PvP, because it doesnt really look like it will even be good. Yes in gyms its a mild annoyance, able to counter machamp with ZH/DG, as our aim's highest DPS, when you remove the highest DPS being the determining factor of blissey coutner. The adition of the second charge move and the shields also adds a lot to blissey's defensive checks. So many new possibilities open up. Metagross hard resists everything blissey has, same with Registeel (though single bard are hurt by shields, it can still burn through them for the rest of blissey's side), and even Aggron become great defensive counters. Depending on what we see blissey regularly carry, as I feel Pound and hyperbeam will be the standard set for highest neutral damage, as well as not being as hard resisted by metagross, and either dazzling gleam or psychic being carries depending on user preference or meta coverage, in either case many counters open up, for the DG sets, focus blast gengar, BB Charizard and other assorted firetypes possibly frenzy plant venusaur, and eventually Heatran will be a monstrous counter, and for psychic, giratina might see an opportunity here as well as meta stables like Dragonite, Mewtwo with focus blast, Tyranitar, Tanky legendaries lugia and cresselia.

Machamp and other fighting types dont really fit in against blissey oddly enough as regardless of the set blissey has, it will always be carrying a super effective move against them, as well as they dont have the kind of bulk a setting like PvP needs when compared to many other pokemon. Lucario, while not weak to psychic or fairy, doesnt get saved by that as it only bearly lasts longer than machamp because its glass cannon stats ontop of having close combat

Blissey (and chansey) arent the only pokemon that will get hurt from no longer considering only highest DPS counter, but it is possibly the most notable. A lot of common pokemon resist it as well as a few unexpected ones, and when not looking at just DPS, he enormous TDO of these pokemon with those resistances might be able to significantly outlast blissey while also hitting it with higher damage.

Asked by MetagrossMaxis5 years 4 months ago

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Another thing to remember here is that when one fights a Blissey in a gym, it's HP are doubled, and it's attacks are slowed down. Both of those should not be the case in PvP - it will be different, and while it might be a tank, it won't dish out a lot of damage. We'll see how it fares relative to more balanced options.

Another way of thinking about it is why doesn't everyone bring Blissey to raids? Because they don't do enough damage to carry their weight, despite sticking around a long time. This should also be true in PvP.

the thing about blissey and raids is that raids are DPS centric, yes it tanks hits well, but when you are on a clock with limited time to deplete a large amount of HP, DPS is all that tends to matter, PVP, will be much more TDO sentric just by pure concept alone.
PvP isnt the same way, Timer's set to 4 minutes, and the HP of the opponent is significantly lower than a raid boss' HP. there is also fighting types will always have to be warry of a blissey with 2 charge moves that is guaranteed to have something they are weak to. As well as if timer runs out, the side with more remaining HP (numerical or percentage wasnt specified) is the winner, unlike in raids/gyms, where if you have all but 1 hp of the opponent left, you still loose.

The attacks on defense being slowed would actually point to a blissey in PvP actually putting higher DPS out than one on defense.

"As well as if timer runs out, the side with more remaining HP (numerical or percentage wasnt specified) is the winner"

I agree that total hp vs. percent wasn't clear, but there's an earlier tiebreaker. If one trainer KOs more of the enemy pokemon, that trainer wins. If that's the same, then it goes to HP done. Hopefully, that would be when both sides have two knocked out.

Leading off with a Blissey and swapping out will give second swap to the other trainer, which is a huge thing to surrender. I think a lot of PvP results will be who brings what to the table when. For example, suppose both trainers bring approximately equal versions of the three Gen1 starters. If trainer A leads off with Charizard, and B with Blastoise, B wins the fight. Sure, A can swap to Venusaur, and then B swaps to Charizard, destroying the Venusaur who is stuck in there for 50 seconds. Then, presumably, A gets to pick who goes back in, and takes Blastoise. As soon as possible, B switches to Venusaur, and then A switches to Charizard, taking out Venusaur.

So the timing of how long it takes to KO the foe when you have the good matchup matters a lot. Do it in 15 seconds, and you might have to deal with 35 seconds of an optimized counter. Do it in 50, and you're golden. Weird mechanic. We'll see how it plays out when it goes live.

Theres the possibility one could trade the KO for sending an optimal counter out. Assuming sending out a pokemon after you got KO'd doesnt count as a 'switch' and dont get the 50second prevention, you could switch into an optimal counter agaisnt what your opponent sends out if they switch their pokemon out, allowing you to get the KO as well

Theres a lot of battle specific things that can go one way or the other depending on team compositions, possibly iv distributions and movesets that cant be predicted yet.

If you are up against a person with blissey, if their other 2 pokemon provide good coverage against your pokemon, and they take down one of your pokemon, idk how long the clock runs, but one train of thought could be to time stall to run the clock down (player with most mons at time out wins)? idk how realistic this would be, and I am guessing that it would work in an even more limited number of scenarios..

Another train of thought is that they might be able to throw it in to soak up some charged attacks, when they run out of shields, that would otherwise have been super effective on their other pokemon

Just playing devil's advocate. Probably wont use one myself though

Another valuable aspect of Blissey's massive health pool is that it allows it to soak hits and gain additional energy from doing so. This allows Blissey to fire off more charge attacks. However, from what I've read in some of the PvP beta test guides, energy gained from losing HP did not seem to be a thing in PvP. If this is an intended feature that makes it through to live, then the Blisseys of Go with their massive HP lose the advantage they have over the tanks with high defense values.

Right now, I've barely given Blissey any consideration for PvP teams I've looked at across the three tiers. Partially because Blissey feels boring to me, but also because I think we may have better tank options. Giratina, Cresselia, and Regice are ones I'm more excited to test out in PvP over Blissey.

Energy gain from damage taken isnt in PvP

Yes, that's what people discovered during the testing phase, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility that it could return when PvP goes live. If it does return, that will give Mons like Blissey and Chansey an advantage in the 1500/2500 leagues. If it doesn't, then I think their viability takes a decent hit.

But its still a possibility it wont be there, and if its not there, blissey wont get that benefit, and defensive counters that take as little damage as possible will be significantly more valuable

If the energy gain from damage is added it will help them, but whether that energy gain from taking more damage helps more than taking as little damage as possible will be something that needs evaluation. So even if energy from damage is added, theres still potential for blissey/chansey to not be good options

Overall, Raids are about doing maximum damage, and not worrying about what you take. That's why Dragons are the best counter for Dragons; they take a lot of damage, and go down fast, but they do a lot of damage while they are in there.

Gym defense is about taking damage - HP are doubled, and attacks are slowed. So TDO is significant, and the effects of HP are amplified, while attacks are reduced.

PvP is going to be about both taking and doing damage. Balanced pokemon will excel there, not the tanks or the glass cannons.

My expectation is that some people will try using Blissey, and it will go out of fashion quickly as everyone brings something that can beat it, Machamp, Metagross, even Ursaring or anything with Focus Blast. Mewtwo with Shadow Ball and Focus Blast will be a beast in the Master league.

I feel most would argue gyms are as much about DPS as raids, given the ever present golden razz potential and needing to take a gym before a raid.

Machamp also likely wont survive long for PvP, its stats are good for what it does in raids and gyms, but over all they arent that impressive when it comes to defense, (about 50 more points of HP, but only 10 points higher in defense compared to gengar, and compared to aerodactyl about 27 more HP and identical defense). Agaisnt match ups like Tyranitar it will do well because it resists bite and SD and deals x2 SE damage, likely wont stand up to neutral hits from things like metagross or possibly iron tail tyranitar. Much like its present stance, in matches where it holds the advantage, it succeed greatly, but doesnt have much of an impact outside of that. That and a double Charge move blissey will always have a super effective move against the champ (psychic of DG). Theres a good number of pokemon that while lacking the DPS of machamp agaisnt blissey, have significantly greater TDO and use against a wider number of pokemon. I feel more people would gravitate towards higher over all use generalists than highest DPS agaisnt specifically blissey and tyranitar when theres going to be a legendary presence in masters league, great and ultra will remain to be seen as most of the best counters to blissey defensively have their highest potential above that 2500 threshold.

Depending on the presence of registeel, machamp might be able to find a place as a counter to it (no rock or ice as metagross handles them better). Like a lot of edge case pokemon with good DPS against certain match ups, we'll have to see where the meta falls

I don't think you're right.

PvP will be all about TDO, not any kind of DPS vs TDO balance. In the unlimited league, balanced Pokemon should do reasonably well, as they tend to have very good TDO.

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